(spoiler) How does last night effect the top 10 HW structure?

[roadfighter3]

I know a lot of you may disagree but the general concensus among long time MMA fans (when i say long time, I mean more than 2 years) is that the big three of Pride are the given 1 2 and 3, with a tad bit of a dispute on whether Nog or Cro Cop is #2.

While I always put Nog at #2 since he did beat Cro Cop (yes, it was a very close match and it could easily have gone the other way, but bottom line is that nog pulled off the miracle and won), after watching CC DESTROY coleman and stop his takedowns like nothing, there is a very strong case that can be made for CC. I personally feel that a rematch between CC and Nog would go very different. Granted, CC is nowhere near the bjj whiz as Nog, but he has improved in takedown defense and ground defense considerably, not to mention that he is physically much stronger. I see the rematch going to CC by unanimous decision.

And then there is Sergei Kharitonov, a man who has the same training background of UFC's Arlo and is known for his toughness (doesnt he remind you of guile from streetfighter?). I can totally imagine this guy as a russian military captain or something, interrogating and breaking the will of captives and shit.

Sure, Choi Mu Bae was hardly in the top 20, so some might say that Sergei's victory was empty. However, we all know how much heart choi has, and how much punishment and pain he is able to endure. Yet the russian beast hurt choi real bad with his punches (those punches looked DAMn hard!) and even finished the previously undefeated fighter in only a couple minutes. Not to mention how impressive Sergei was against Nog, providing a great match. Who knows, with a few more fights and a year or two of more high level experience, Sergei just might reshape the big three. Although Sergei is somewhat unproven, we can all pretty much recognize the immense potential in this guy. He did show impressive striking in his last few bouts, and as a sambo practitioner you can only expect even more of that on the ground.

As premature as it may seem (and I know a lot of you will disagree with me here), I'm going to say that sergei belongs in the top 5 picture as the #5 man, right below arlo. I actually agree with another member who feels that sergei can beat arlo, but we should probably wait till sergei gets another fight or two under his belt before we elevate him above the UFC champ.

I'm going to have to knock Mir down a bit, because other than the upset over Sylvia (who I feel was overrated anyway), I, along with many other fans, don't feel that Mir has shown his dominance enough. I would certainly love to see more of him, though, and a win over Arlo would certainly vault Mir up into the top 5.

So as the top 5, I have

1. Fedor
2. Nog
2. Cro Cop (I just cant bring myself to put him ahead of Nog entirely until they get a rematch)
4. Arlovski (you can't deny this man this spot after the way he thrashed Sylvia and knocked out Cabbage, and also because he IS the champ)
5. Sergei
6. Mir (had he not gotten injured, he very well may be #4 or even #3)

the next four are sticky and really are just a matter of opinion. We have fighters like Herring that present a threat to anyone (herring vs sergei needs to be done soon), and then we have guys like Sylvia. Yeah, he's been exposed against top competition, but you can't forget his wins over ricco and gan, both top 15 fighters.

Also, Ricco and Rizzo are grey areas. While they could be top level fighters, their inactivity as of late makes them really hard to measure. If rizzo's deal with pride works out well, we will be able to see if the RVT man still has what it takes to keep up with the best. I see rizzo as potentially breaking the top 5 (wins over kharitonov and herring is what it would take), but I doubt he can be champ again. Ricco will never be champ again either. He just doesnt have the desire or motivation. However, he is still a good candidate for a top 10 spot. Hopefully we can see him against guys like Buentello or Kyle in the UFC.

You can't forget Fujita, either. In all honesty, not very many men could beat, let alone manhandle Bob Sapp like that in MMA competition. Bob Sapp could probably beat several top 10 fighters (he almost beat nog, didn't he?), but fujita put him in his place and made him look like a big kid.

In addition to those guys, we have rising stars like Buentello, Werdum, and Alexander Emelianenko.

So what do you guys think of the HW picture after last night? It certainly will be very interesting to see what happens this year.

[heckyl]

i can agree with that actually. CC and Nog are easily deadlocked at #2. Id love to see #4 fight #5 though. man would that be a barnburner.

[( o Y o )]

I was thinking about this last night when someone mentioned a crocop vs Nog rematch before CC fights Fedor (which is BS IMO).

Really, for Nog, the last thing his career needs is another beatdown. Sure, he beat CC last time but I think the strongest impression was the amount CC beat on him in the first round, and as his takedown defense is significantly better now, that beatdown could well continue for three rounds.

Nog needs to fight someone semi easy before another big fight, and CC needs Fedor next.

I pray fedor doesn`t injure his hand in his next fight...

[roadfighter3]

it hink the problem for nog is that while 4 years ago he dominated with his slick submissions, everyone is starting to catch onto him now. they all expect his triangle from guard, they all expect his armbar from guard, and now they even expect his anaconda choke. nog isnt strong enough to impose his will on anyone. he relies entirely on trying to catch them in one of his subs which doesnt always work on a guy whos expecting it. his striking is good, but he wont be knocking out anyone soon because he doesnt possess enough power (that ajapnese guy he knocked out? please.)

nog needs to bulk up in muscle and learn to utilize strength in conjunction with his bjj. straight up bjj just doesnt cut it anymore in mma, as seen in bustamante's last few fights as well as other examples.

[RedHawk]

my top 5

1. Fedor
2. Cro Cop
3. Sergei
4. Alexander
5. Nog

[freefightdave]

my top 5

1. Fedor
2. Cro Cop
3. Sergei
4. Alexander
5. Nog
ARe you kidding? Who has Alexander beaten, and Nog beat Sergei .

[Grant Ellis]

Speaking of myself, I think Nogueira should cut to MW in PRIDE or LHW in UFC and seek a title there.

Nogueira vs....Couture?

[heckyl]

Nog could stay HW and own the UFC.

[roadfighter3]

Nog could stay HW and own the UFC.


cept he makes so much more at pride.. and he wants to be the best of the world, not of the ufc. such high hopes can only end in heartbreak, eh?

[roadfighter3]

my top 5

1. Fedor
2. Cro Cop
3. Sergei
4. Alexander
5. Nog


i suppose that could POTENTIALLY be the case in a year or two, but as it stands, nog beat sergei recently and has been fighting much tougher guys than alex. alex could very well break into the top 5 sometime next year, though.

[KickYourHeadOff]

it hink the problem for nog is that while 4 years ago he dominated with his slick submissions, everyone is starting to catch onto him now.

Thats what they said last year until he subbed Herring and that other, anyone who dont got Nog as 2 is crazy, only Fedor is the guy who beat him, Nogs record is incredible and was the guy who stopped CroCop and he beat Sergei and pretty much everyone but Fedor

[AKA]

Fedor is pretty unbeatable now even vs CC imo.
But guys like Arlovsky and Serguei could play the first roles in a short time.

[nycfreefight]

Speaking of myself, I think Nogueira should cut to MW in PRIDE or LHW in UFC and seek a title there.

Nogueira vs....Couture?

That's the best statement I've seen in some time. If Couture can go down in weight and totally dominate the UFC LHW division, I'm sure Nogueira can go down in weight such as Couture did. A middleweight Nigueira would create havok in the Pride middleweight division.

[AKA]

1.Fedor
2.CC
3.Nog
4.Arlovsky
5.Serguei


that souns good, no?

[roadfighter3]

That's the best statement I've seen in some time. If Couture can go down in weight and totally dominate the UFC LHW division, I'm sure Nogueira can go down in weight such as Couture did. A middleweight Nigueira would create havok in the Pride middleweight division.


problem with that is what to do about his brother. ask him to cut even more weight? the two originally purposely fought in separate weight divisions with the dream that theyd both be champs one day.

also it will be very difficult physically for nog as a MW. 6'3'' is pretty tall for a middleweight, which would make him considerably weaker than other fighters who are 5'11'' ish.

but i guess it would be fun to see wand and nog sqitch places to mix shit up, eh?

[roadfighter3]

1.Fedor
2.CC
3.Nog
4.Arlovsky
5.Serguei


that souns good, no?


people will always argue that nog still beat cc. also the randleman loss hurts cc's rank a bit as well. put cc and nog as a tie and it should be fine :)

[roadfighter3]

wow i completely forgot to mention josh barnett. he would probably be around # 6 or 7.. cant decide righgt now.

[KickYourHeadOff]

Dont think Nog ever wanna go down, hes a fighter and wanna be the best, not run away from Fedor and do something else, he gonna fight until he beats Fedor or whoever is the champion in the future

[roadfighter3]

Dont think Nog ever wanna go down, hes a fighter and wanna be the best, not run away from Fedor and do something else, he gonna fight until he beats Fedor or whoever is the champion in the future


if cro cop beats fedor and nog beats cro cop again, then the rankings will be a total mess.

[-=[DM]=-]

I would never count Nog out of a fight, unless he is facing fedor.

[RedHawk]

ARe you kidding? Who has Alexander beaten, and Nog beat Sergei .


Nope. Not kidding at all. I'm a huge Nog fan. But let's be honest, he can't beat any of the top 4 on my list. Not without increasing his standup AND takedown skills.

I'm not sure if anyone here thinks that Nog would win a rematch with Mirko. I believe the same amount of people think that Fedor would win again, if Nog was to fight him.

Sergei lost a close decision to Nog in their first fight. I think he will take Nog the next time they meet.

That leaves us with Alex. Although he won the left highkick award for 2004, Alex has skills and size. I think Alex could KO Nog. If they fight, I think he WILL KO Nog.

Because I'm a Nog fan, I do not want to see him match up against ANY of these guys in the near future. I think Nog needs some time off from fighting. He needs a chance to work aggressively on his takedowns and his striking skills. Some head movement would do wonders for his defense, as well.


Grant Ellis Speaking of myself, I think Nogueira should cut to MW in PRIDE or LHW in UFC and seek a title there.

Sounds like a good plan to me.

[Grant Ellis]

Nog's takedowns looked the best they ever had in the Sergei fight, and his standup looked good too. Watch the Herring rematch for even more proof of that.

If you recall, Sergei was the one bleeding out the face, the one who was taken down and mounted in that fight.

But you are right, a single fight between them would probably go much differently.
Sergei had trained for a different time limit, and why go all out against Nogueira if you'll have to fight Fedor right after?

Sergei did well in that fight too... but I don't think the decision was close. Nogueira was the better fighter in that tourney.

Most people just sell Nogueira short simply because Fedor is a better fighter than he is. That's all.

[Cracked_Knuckle]

Personally I think Nog has great stand up technique, he just seriously lacks power and like his brother, doesn't seem to get fired-up all that much (with the exception of when he foght Sergei and Herring where he was unusually so).

[Grant Ellis]

problem with that is what to do about his brother. ask him to cut even more weight? the two originally purposely fought in separate weight divisions with the dream that theyd both be champs one day.

also it will be very difficult physically for nog as a MW. 6'3'' is pretty tall for a middleweight, which would make him considerably weaker than other fighters who are 5'11'' ish.

but i guess it would be fun to see wand and nog sqitch places to mix shit up, eh?

He's an identical twin with his brother, except Rogerio said he is naturally HEAVIER than Rodrigo. Rodrigo stated this in an interview with PRIDE.

DSE actually said Rogerio vs. Rodrigo was a possibility if the MW GP came around, because Minotauro planned on fighting in the MW GP if he won the HW GP.

And Couture, Liddell, and Ortiz are all three 6'1" I think, which is only a small difference from 6'3". Alistair is like 6'5".

If you think it will be difficult for Nogueira physically at 205, you think it is going to be much easier at HW where opponents can EASILY outweigh him?

Sergei and Yokoi could also cut to 205.

[roadfighter3]

wait, rogerio is naturally built heavier than rodrigo? why didnt HE go to HW instead? strange.

[-=[DM]=-]

I think he WILL KO Nog.


what on earth has aleksander shown that makes you think he would KO Nog. Alexander's standup mostly consist of wild haymakers and bullrushing.Nog would probably outpoint him on the feets until the fight ended up on the ground one way or another.

[sandrey1]

What about Fujita??? I think he could be rated in the top 5

[RedHawk]

what on earth has aleksander shown that makes you think he would KO Nog.

Alex has size, strength and skill. He's a Combat Sambo World Champion. He has victories over Assuerio Silva and Carlos Barreto. Alex's punches (while a bit wild) are very powerful. Cro Cop was able to avoid getting hammered with those powerful shots, with superior footwork and head movement.

James Thompson chose to stand and trade with Alex. We see what happened there.

As we all know, styles make fights. Nog's style matches up perfectly for a KO vs Alex and I'll tell you why.


Nog's footwork consists of 2 feet moving forward. His head movement is good for the first part of round one. But somewhere in the middle of round 1, he seems to forget to do it. He often broadcasts his takedowns and his shot is rather slow. Nog is the man on the ground. He said along time ago that nobody in PRIDE could match his ground skills. This still holds true today. (IMO)


Alex would use the same game plan that Fedor did vs Nog. He would try to keep the fight standing. Nog is a little overconfident in his striking ability. When Nog attempts a takedown, Alex would probably throw him down to the mat harder than Fedor did. After being stuffed a few times Nog will try to stand with Alex, thinking his standup skill is equal to Alex's. This is where Alex will KO Nog. Nog will walk straight forward, he will forget to use head movement and he will walk right into a powerful shot that puts his lights out.


*I would like to add that Alex does have questionable stamina. Nog's got the best in the business. Stamina could become a factor. In which case Nog would clearly win.*

I wonder if Fedor doesn't sign, will we even see Alex in the Pride ring again?

[Grant Ellis]

wait, rogerio is naturally built heavier than rodrigo? why didnt HE go to HW instead? strange.

No, not strange at all when you look at the history.

Rodrigo started fighting NHB before Rogerio.
At the time Rodrigo started fighting not many other fighters could hang with him at heavyweight. He had already won titles in that division. Rogerio went to the lighter division at the request of the promoters, because Rodrigo was already a champion. It wouldn't make much sense for Rodrigo to vacate his title just because his brother, with not even close to the same amount of experience in MMA, would start fighting heavyweight.

And as already pointed out, niether of the Nogueira brothers are that big. Either could fight at LHW and do fine, as Rogerio is already doing now.

When you've read their interviews from the debuts, you'd know this:
http://www.pridefc.com/interviews/rog_nogueira_02/nogueira.htm

And later, before the first Nakamura fight, Rogerio said his brother is a better boxer and hits harder than he does anyways.

In conclusion:
They didn't start fighting at the same time.
Rodrigo was already a heavyweight titlist and more experienced in the fight game.
Rogerio said his brother had better technique standing and on the ground.
They aren't that big and they can cut.

[freefightdave]

Nope. Not kidding at all. I'm a huge Nog fan. But let's be honest, he can't beat any of the top 4 on my list. Not without increasing his standup AND takedown skills.

I'm not sure if anyone here thinks that Nog would win a rematch with Mirko. I believe the same amount of people think that Fedor would win again, if Nog was to fight him.

Sergei lost a close decision to Nog in their first fight. I think he will take Nog the next time they meet.

That leaves us with Alex. Although he won the left highkick award for 2004, Alex has skills and size. I think Alex could KO Nog. If they fight, I think he WILL KO Nog.

Because I'm a Nog fan, I do not want to see him match up against ANY of these guys in the near future. I think Nog needs some time off from fighting. He needs a chance to work aggressively on his takedowns and his striking skills. Some head movement would do wonders for his defense, as well.


Grant Ellis

Sounds like a good plan to me.
If sergei is to beat nog he has to improve that shitty takedown-defence. I too think that Fedor is too much for nog, and that CC will win in a rematch. But I don`t understand why you rank Aleksander up there, I think it`s clear that, say, Arlovski should have his place on the list. If Fedor couldn`t KO nog, I doubt that Aleks could. I see an Aleksander-nog fight going like this: Aleks pounding on nog a little in the beginning, but nowhere enough to KO nog. Eventually Aleks gasses, it ends up on the ground and nog subs Aleks, or wins a unanimous decision.

[K++s]

problem with that is what to do about his brother. ask him to cut even more weight? the two originally purposely fought in separate weight divisions with the dream that theyd both be champs one day.

also it will be very difficult physically for nog as a MW. 6'3'' is pretty tall for a middleweight, which would make him considerably weaker than other fighters who are 5'11'' ish.

but i guess it would be fun to see wand and nog sqitch places to mix shit up, eh?

Reverse roles.

Nog gets the MW and Lil'Nog gets to be pounded by Fedor...

[Grant Ellis]

Reverse roles.

Nog gets the MW and Lil'Nog gets to be pounded by Fedor...

Bwahaha...exactly!

Actually, what you do is Rua brothers vs. Nogueira twins.

Shogun vs. Minotauro.
Ninja vs. Minotouro.

Then all four vs. Fedor and Cro-cop!