had been thinking...

[somewhere in time]

after the fight last night i was so pissed at the ufc, and matt hughes. and i was gonna write this big post about why they suck so bad... but then i realized- whats the point?

[heckyl]

um? care to elaborate?

[somewhere in time]

um? care to elaborate?

no, because like i said- there is no point.

[RedHawk]

The Hughes/Gracie fight leaves me with alot of the same feelings that the Arona/Saku fight did.

[FieldingMellish]

after the fight last night i was so pissed at the ufc, and matt hughes. and i was gonna write this big post about why they suck so bad... but then i realized- whats the point?

What a completely ridiculous thing to say.

Anyone with any real knowledge and impartial analysis knew Hughes was winning that fight. Anyone expecting any different was living in the past and totally ignorant of what happened when Gracie fought Hideo Tokoro.

In the May 2006 issue of Fighters Only magazine I was part of a panel asked about the Hughes-Gracie fight and said:
"Hughes is going to hammer him. Gracie has fought very little serious competition of late and Hughes has all the physical advantages. Gracie will spend too long waiting for a mistake that will never come and pay for it with a ferocious beating. I pick Hughes by second round TKO."

And yes, I'm sure you should be pissed off at Matt Hughes for, erm, winning a fight. That's his job.

It's not like they took Gracie off the street and paid him a pittance to get destroyed. He made a huge amount of money from that fight. By my understanding, Gracie's pay came from Zuffa, with some input from K-1 and since its customary these days for big name UFC main eventers to get a cut of PPV revenue, he probably got some of that action too.

And RedHawk: there's an important difference between the Hughes-Gracie fight and the Sakuraba-Arona fight - Hughes didn't try and tear existing cuts open with his fingers. Any attempt to equate the two fights is ridiculous since Sakuraba has been broken down for years, has knees that belong to a 70-year-old and was facing someone a good 20 pounds (naturally) heavier. Hughes obviuolsy weighed more once they got in there but its not his fault he's a WAY more effective weight-cutter than Gracie (who couldn't get down to 170 so they made the fight at 175). And Gracie is nothing like as crippled as Sakuraba.

[Grant Ellis]

I am probably the biggest Royce Gracie fan on this earth and I knew what was going to happen once the fight got on.

I saw Royce getting hurt and he did.

It could have been worse.

This fight should be a testament of the REALITY which is Matt Hughes dominance.

[FieldingMellish]

I am probably the biggest Royce Gracie fan on this earth and I knew what was going to happen once the fight got on.

I saw Royce getting hurt and he did.

It could have been worse.

This fight should be a testament of the REALITY which is Matt Hughes dominance.

I was going to mention you in my post.

I know you're a big Royce fan and you accepted/predicted what was going to happen a few days before the fight.

That makes somewhere in time's attitude even more bizarre.

[Grant Ellis]

But you have to remember...legends eventually lose!

Sakuraba got destroyed THREE TIMES by Wanderlei Silva, TKO'd by Cro-cop, KO'd by Nino Schembri, torn to pieces (literally) by Arona. Sakuraba is a legend and I will always consider him one of the greatest to ever grace the Octagon (UFC Japan champion) or PRIDE ring.

Couture got TKO'd by Barnett, Rodriguez, and KO'd by Liddell twice. Not to mention he was submitted a couple of times in his career.

Matt Hughes has been KO'd once and submitted three times.

EVERYONE LOSES, even legends and heroes. They are only human :)

[FieldingMellish]

But you have to remember...legends eventually lose!

Sakuraba got destroyed THREE TIMES by Wanderlei Silva, TKO'd by Cro-cop, KO'd by Nino Schembri, torn to pieces (literally) by Arona. Sakuraba is a legend and I will always consider him one of the greatest to ever grace the Octagon (UFC Japan champion) or PRIDE ring.

Couture got TKO'd by Barnett, Rodriguez, and KO'd by Liddell twice. Not to mention he was submitted a couple of times in his career.

Matt Hughes has been KO'd once and submitted three times.

EVERYONE LOSES, even legends and heroes. They are only human :)

You make a good central point, BUT.....

Silva did NOT destroy Sakuraba in their second fight. He injured Sakuraba's shoulder in a pretty competitive fight.

And while I'm not one to flog a dead horse (yeah right, lol) Schembri did NOT legitimately KO Sakuraba.

But yes, even legends are human.

[somewhere in time]

What a completely ridiculous thing to say.

Anyone with any real knowledge and impartial analysis knew Hughes was winning that fight. Anyone expecting any different was living in the past and totally ignorant of what happened when Gracie fought Hideo Tokoro.

In the May 2006 issue of Fighters Only magazine I was part of a panel asked about the Hughes-Gracie fight and said:
"Hughes is going to hammer him. Gracie has fought very little serious competition of late and Hughes has all the physical advantages. Gracie will spend too long waiting for a mistake that will never come and pay for it with a ferocious beating. I pick Hughes by second round TKO."

And yes, I'm sure you should be pissed off at Matt Hughes for, erm, winning a fight. That's his job.

It's not like they took Gracie off the street and paid him a pittance to get destroyed. He made a huge amount of money from that fight. By my understanding, Gracie's pay came from Zuffa, with some input from K-1 and since its customary these days for big name UFC main eventers to get a cut of PPV revenue, he probably got some of that action too.

And RedHawk: there's an important difference between the Hughes-Gracie fight and the Sakuraba-Arona fight - Hughes didn't try and tear existing cuts open with his fingers. Any attempt to equate the two fights is ridiculous since Sakuraba has been broken down for years, has knees that belong to a 70-year-old and was facing someone a good 20 pounds (naturally) heavier. Hughes obviuolsy weighed more once they got in there but its not his fault he's a WAY more effective weight-cutter than Gracie (who couldn't get down to 170 so they made the fight at 175). And Gracie is nothing like as crippled as Sakuraba.


well, my attitude was not meant to be bizarre..

and i agree with everything you say- which is why i rescinded the idea of posting on how the ufc is shit for building up royce to be something he is not, and blah blah blah balh blah blha lbhalhbalhbalablha.........

but i wanted to get the debate going at least because i was left feeling extremely dissapointed after the fight. . . .

but we have to account for choices here (like you pointed out)- and if any sport is about choices it is this one. royce CHOSE this match probably realizing that he couldnt compete at the same level. And he chose to put his legacy on the line and all of that idyllic stuff.

i dont know- maybe what pissed me off was how much the ufc kept refering to royce as "undefeated" and all that shit. their attempt to re-write history in their favor annoys me.

[Grant Ellis]

You make a good central point, BUT.....

Silva did NOT destroy Sakuraba in their second fight. He injured Sakuraba's shoulder in a pretty competitive fight.

And while I'm not one to flog a dead horse (yeah right, lol) Schembri did NOT legitimately KO Sakuraba.

But yes, even legends are human.

Yes, it was a close fight, but do you remember how long Sakuraba was away from action after that second fight?

And how long was Silva away? Or did he fight at the next show? ;)

The match was competitive, but Sakuraba's shoulder was gone for a long time after that. Physically, Sakuraba was a mess.

But the match itself, Saku was doing great until the slam. he just has bad luck.

[Grant Ellis]

We have to remember that Matt Hughes makes a lot of guys look bad.

He submitted GSP in the first round!
And Riggs (but that is getting old, lol)... and slammed Newton out (then dominated him till a TKO), and tapped Trigg the same way twice (both in the first round)

Hughes makes a lot of guys look bad.

Now he needs to move up in weight just to fight ANDERSON SILVA.

[heckyl]

if your worried about how they hyped up Royce, why did you wait til after he got destroyed to say anything? and why are you mad at Matt Hughes? his job is to defeat the person put in front of him, and thats all he did.

[Grant Ellis]

if your worried about how they hyped up Royce, why did you wait til after he got destroyed to say anything? and why are you mad at Matt Hughes? his job is to defeat the person put in front of him, and thats all he did.

He looked pretty good doing it too.

In the Staples Center.

I had such a good feeling, even though my hero was getting destroyed.

MMA has come so far in North America.

[FieldingMellish]

Yes, it was a close fight, but do you remember how long Sakuraba was away from action after that second fight?

And how long was Silva away? Or did he fight at the next show? ;)

The match was competitive, but Sakuraba's shoulder was gone for a long time after that. Physically, Sakuraba was a mess.

But the match itself, Saku was doing great until the slam. he just has bad luck.

That just makes no sense.

Josh Barnett's shoulder injury in his first fight with cro Cop kept him out for a long time. Cro Cop was fine. That proves very little.

[Grant Ellis]

That just makes no sense.

Josh Barnett's shoulder injury in his first fight with cro Cop kept him out for a long time. Cro Cop was fine. That proves very little.

It means one fighter can get "destroyed" without being dominated.

You didn't understand the point I was making.

Silva won, and he fought again the very next show, even if it was an even match until the slam.

But Silva caused that injury.
Sakuraba had a lot of problems for a long time because of it.

It can be a competitive fight and one fighter can still end up destroyed in the end
(See Julio Cesar Chavez vs. Meldrick Taylor)

Maybe I should say "Silva destoryed Sakuraba's shoulder once and Sakuraba himself twice"

[FieldingMellish]

well, my attitude was not meant to be bizarre..

and i agree with everything you say- which is why i rescinded the idea of posting on how the ufc is shit for building up royce to be something he is not, and blah blah blah balh blah blha lbhalhbalhbalablha.........

but i wanted to get the debate going at least because i was left feeling extremely dissapointed after the fight. . . .

but we have to account for choices here (like you pointed out)- and if any sport is about choices it is this one. royce CHOSE this match probably realizing that he couldnt compete at the same level. And he chose to put his legacy on the line and all of that idyllic stuff.

i dont know- maybe what pissed me off was how much the ufc kept refering to royce as "undefeated" and all that shit. their attempt to re-write history in their favor annoys me.

UFC's job is to promote their fights.

What were they supposed to say - "Royce Gracie used to rule the UFC but the sport has evolved exponentially since then and Matt Hughes will beat the living shit out of him!! See it on pay-per-view!!!! Pay $39.95 (or whatver it is) to see a massacre!!!!!!!!!!!!"

If they actually did that, there'd be plenty of people bitching about how they were dissing Gracie. And it'd also bea total failure as a pay-per-view event.

Marketing is essential. Deal with it.

[heckyl]

What were they supposed to say - "Royce Gracie used to rule the UFC but the sport has evolved exponentially since then and Matt Hughes will beat the living shit out of him!! See it on pay-per-view!!!! Pay $39.95 (or whatver it is) to see a massacre!!!!!!!!!!!!"



my thoughts exactly.

you are fucking hilarious sometimes.

and grant, i hope your not sending me messages on aim. im at work :(

[RedHawk]

And RedHawk: there's an important difference between the Hughes-Gracie fight and the Sakuraba-Arona fight - Hughes didn't try and tear existing cuts open with his fingers. Any attempt to equate the two fights is ridiculous


Well to me the fights ARE similar.

BOTH Saku and Royce are MMA legends.

Royce was completely manhandled by Matt. He never had a chance once the fight hit the ground.

Saku was completely manhandled by Arona. He never had a chance once the fight hit the ground.


And while Arona did pull/poke at Saku's cuts, it wasn't the determining factor of the fight. The cuts were there because of Arona's total domination of Saku on the ground.


It's hard to watch a legend get dominated so completely.

[Grant Ellis]

my thoughts exactly.

you are fucking hilarious sometimes.

and grant, i hope your not sending me messages on aim. im at work :(

No, I am too busy laughing at the same thing you are.

heh.

[heckyl]

it wasnt too hard for me to watch. i enjoyed the 1.3 million dollar asswhooping. Royce came out ontop regardless IMO :)

[RedHawk]

it wasnt too hard for me to watch. i enjoyed the 1.3 million dollar asswhooping. Royce came out ontop regardless IMO :)


well. looking at it that way, yes he did. :)

[Grant Ellis]

Seriosuly, yeah.

There were so many guys who wanted to do this same thing to Royce for much longer and for a lot less.

Royce held out till he could make the most money and do it against the biggest name.

Television star and UFC champion Matt Hughes beating him isn't as bad as anyone else.

[FieldingMellish]

It means one fighter can get "destroyed" without being dominated.

You didn't understand the point I was making.

Silva won, and he fought again the very next show, even if it was an even match until the slam.

But Silva caused that injury.
Sakuraba had a lot of problems for a long time because of it.

It can be a competitive fight and one fighter can still end up destroyed in the end
(See Julio Cesar Chavez vs. Meldrick Taylor)

Maybe I should say "Silva destoryed Sakuraba's shoulder once and Sakuraba himself twice"

So what you're saying is, a freak injury equates to someone being "destroyed" even if the other two examples (the other Silva-Sakuraba fights) were a vicious beatdown (first fight) and a one punch KO (third fight)?

Vitor Belfort beat Randy Couture in their second fight by 'destroying' his eyelid. Belfort could have fought later that night while couture was clearly out for a few months. does that prove anything? Especially when Couture battered the crap out of him in their other fights?

And I'm very confused about the Taylor-Chavez reference - I'm familair with that fight and the only thing destroyed there was Richard Steele's reputation (despite him making the right call). I don't see where that fits in.

[FieldingMellish]

Well to me the fights ARE similar.

BOTH Saku and Royce are MMA legends.

Royce was completely manhandled by Matt. He never had a chance once the fight hit the ground.

Saku was completely manhandled by Arona. He never had a chance once the fight hit the ground.


And while Arona did pull/poke at Saku's cuts, it wasn't the determining factor of the fight. The cuts were there because of Arona's total domination of Saku on the ground.


It's hard to watch a legend get dominated so completely.

It may not have been a determining factor in the fight, but it made Arona look like a cheating scumbag. Hughes didn't look that way to me.

And while you're totally right that Sakuraba and Royce are both true legends, I have very different feelings in watching them fight. Admittedly Sakuraba is a hero to me, BUT, its also much worse when he's in there getting smashed to pieces since he's so obviously physically broken down and vulnerable. Gracie isn't.

In fact, given their respective deals with K-1 Hero's, I'd be very surpised if Gracie wasn't lobbying constantly for Saku-Royce II as he'd have a much better chance this time.

[Grant Ellis]

So what you're saying is, a freak injury equates to someone being "destroyed" even if the other two examples (the other Silva-Sakuraba fights) were a vicious beatdown (first fight) and a one punch KO (third fight)?

Vitor Belfort beat Randy Couture in their second fight by 'destroying' his eyelid. Belfort could have fought later that night while couture was clearly out for a few months. does that prove anything? Especially when Couture battered the crap out of him in their other fights?

And I'm very confused about the Taylor-Chavez reference - I'm familair with that fight and the only thing destroyed there was Richard Steele's reputation (despite him making the right call). I don't see where that fits in.

You aren't familiar with the aftermath of the Taylor-Chavez fight then, that is what I was referring to. Competitive fight, but Taylor wasn't the same afterwards.

You seem to not mention how Sakuraba wasn't out for "a few months" like Couture (who if you read the interview he could have fought as quickly as THREE WEEKS after that fight...Sakuraba was out for almost an ENTIRE YEAR afterwards.

It isn't a freak injury when you go for a guillotine and you are picked up and slammed like that.

Slams can knock people out, they can break bones, they have ended fights on more than one occasion. Sakuraba held in there like a trooper, but he was out for much longer than a few months with a broken clavicle.

Yes, it is unfortunate, but I think one can say "Sakuraba was destroyed on three occasions" by Wanderlei Silva. Dominated and TKO'd, broken clavicle which kept him out for many months, and then finally KO'd after a few minutes.

No amount of debate will change the amount of time Sakuraba spent in the hospital after those fights.

[FieldingMellish]

You aren't familiar with the aftermath of the Taylor-Chavez fight then, that is what I was referring to. Competitive fight, but Taylor wasn't the same afterwards.

You seem to not mention how Sakuraba wasn't out for "a few months" like Couture (who if you read the interview he could have fought as quickly as THREE WEEKS after that fight...Sakuraba was out for almost an ENTIRE YEAR afterwards.

It isn't a freak injury when you go for a guillotine and you are picked up and slammed like that.

Slams can knock people out, they can break bones, they have ended fights on more than one occasion. Sakuraba held in there like a trooper, but he was out for much longer than a few months with a broken clavicle.

Yes, it is unfortunate, but I think one can say "Sakuraba was destroyed on three occasions" by Wanderlei Silva. Dominated and TKO'd, broken clavicle which kept him out for many months, and then finally KO'd after a few minutes.

No amount of debate will change the amount of time Sakuraba spent in the hospital after those fights.

Well, that was a career performance by Taylor in the first place and while he was unbeaten going into the Chavez fight, his only truly impressive win prior to that was against Buddy McGirt and Taylor was expected to get utterly wasted in the Chavez fight. And I wouldn't say the fight was that competitive, since Taylor was well on the way to victory until Chavez turned it around in the dying seconds.

I wasn't disputing when Couture could have fought after the second Belfort fight, I was just pointing out that Belfort could have fought the same day with no ill-effects (well, its Belfort so who knows, unless he has a contact number for ............. the OLD VITOR!!!!!)

And while you're 100% right that slams can end fights the point is, they rarely do. Silva's intention at that point was clearly to escape from Sakuraba's guillotine. That slam WAS a freak injury since I can't recall a fight ending exactly like that before or since. I may be missing something but when has that happened since in the intervening four and a half years?

I never disputed anything about how much time Sakuraba spent in the hospital after the first and third fight, and since, as I've already established I feel the second was more of a fluke than anything it really isn't relevant when it comes to Silva "destroying" Sakuraba.

As fior the amount of time thta injury put Sakuraba out for - he was back in the ring against Mirko Cro Cop less than 10 months later and the shoulder had no bearing on his loss in that fight.

[heckyl]

yall hijacked this thread nicely. gave it some real content. bang up job, boys.

[FieldingMellish]

yall hijacked this thread nicely. gave it some real content. bang up job, boys.

Just think of me and Grant as a pair of desparate bandidos, hijacking the internet like a pair of heels in a shitty western.

[heckyl]

THE INTERNET IS YOUR PLAYGROUND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[somewhere in time]

UFC's job is to promote their fights.

What were they supposed to say - "Royce Gracie used to rule the UFC but the sport has evolved exponentially since then and Matt Hughes will beat the living shit out of him!! See it on pay-per-view!!!! Pay $39.95 (or whatver it is) to see a massacre!!!!!!!!!!!!"

If they actually did that, there'd be plenty of people bitching about how they were dissing Gracie. And it'd also bea total failure as a pay-per-view event.

Marketing is essential. Deal with it.

yeah ... i can deal with the essentials of marketing- but what i cant deal with is, is trying to distort the facts! what part of that dont you get?

so by your logic what you are saying is similar to the idea that: "it doesnt matter that iraq didnt have WMD's because politics are essential"? now wheres the fuckin sense in that? you seem to think that the end justifies the means- and that is exactly what i have a problem with! the acceptance of this logic by sheep who dont know to think about its ethical conclusion. sure the ufc isnt the ultimate purveyor of this way of thinking- but by tools such as yourself making excuses as to why it is okay, and the ufc taking advantage of that fact leads to a social dissonance on a greater level. but whatever, this is the whole reason i was unsure of even doing this thread- i should have known that it would only be met with hostile remarks attempting to insult my intelligence- EVEN AFTER i agreed with most of what you said.

anyway, my point is that other organizations do not submit themselves to this low level marketing....

[heckyl]

low level marketing that just made them tons of money, and made a new star in Hughes...someone who actually does deserve some spotlight. i dont have a problem with any of their tactics on this one. we as hardcore fans, know Royce wasnt defeated or unstoppable. we as hardcore fans also know this was all HYPE. you seem to be the only one that is not accepting this. i mean fuck, everyone has known this since they announced it so many months ago. why didnt you bitch about it then?

[( o Y o )]

I haven`t seen the fight yet, and doubt I will now my pc is fucked.....just one thing popped out to me while reading this though it probably has little meaning.

Shogun has been out a long time aready and probably wont be back for a good few months still. Having said that, Coleman never really dominated him. I see this as being similar though way shorter, to the Saku vs Silva II fight.

[heckyl]

fuck yeah, even boobs is off topic! what is wrong with your pc? im pretty good with computers.

[somewhere in time]

low level marketing that just made them tons of money, and made a new star in Hughes...someone who actually does deserve some spotlight. i dont have a problem with any of their tactics on this one. we as hardcore fans, know Royce wasnt defeated or unstoppable. we as hardcore fans also know this was all HYPE. you seem to be the only one that is not accepting this. i mean fuck, everyone has known this since they announced it so many months ago. why didnt you bitch about it then?

i understand, but disagree...and i was bitching about it months ago. ;)

[heckyl]

oh ok. i am speechless then.

[Faster]

I am probably the biggest Royce Gracie fan on this earth and I knew what was going to happen once the fight got on.

I saw Royce getting hurt and he did.

It could have been worse.

This fight should be a testament of the REALITY which is Matt Hughes dominance.

Sadly....It was worse.

After watching the video of the end of the fight, I have to agree with those suggesting Royce was in the process of tapping out. Unfortunately IMO if Royce really did intend to tap out....to strikes no less....that is something a lot more damaging to the Gracie legacy, than any loss could do. Considering the Gracie's have always prided themselves in going into fights as though submitting was not an option.

I know this pic is not exactly proof.....but,
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/6837/hughesgracie0055us.jpg

[Faster]

Just think of me and Grant as a pair of desparate bandidos, hijacking the internet like a pair of heels in a shitty western.

Lol....What exactly is your relationship to Grant? Childhood sweetheart? Spouse? Fraternal twin? D&D dungeon master guide.....

I have been reading over your little square-dance/debate....found it quite interesting. If you ever get this issue resolved or arrive at a consensus, you guys should create a wikipedia profile to help clarify the age old debate of what it means: To be "destroyed" ....and what it entails. :hmmm:

[( o Y o )]

fuck yeah, even boobs is off topic! what is wrong with your pc? im pretty good with computers.


As far as my technical knowledge goes....it is fucked. lol

Not sure though but a blue screen is coming up after booting the pc up...takes about 5 minutes before it comes up but then in English (odd and the OS is Japanese) is sayoing some ramble about their being an unexpeced error occuring so windows has been shut down to prevent damage. It may be due to hard or software so uninstall any new soft....of shich I have none

[Faster]

so by your logic what you are saying is similar to the idea that: "it doesnt matter that iraq didnt have WMD's because politics are essential"? now wheres the fuckin sense in that? you seem to think that the end justifies the means- and that is exactly what i have a problem with! the acceptance of this logic by sheep who dont know to think about its ethical conclusion. sure the ufc isnt the ultimate purveyor of this way of thinking- but by tools such as yourself making excuses as to why it is okay, and the ufc taking advantage of that fact leads to a social dissonance on a greater level. but whatever, this is the whole reason i was unsure of even doing this thread- i should have known that it would only be met with hostile remarks attempting to insult my intelligence- EVEN AFTER i agreed with most of what you said.
....

:bulb: ---> :hmmm: ---> :wtf:

[FieldingMellish]

yeah ... i can deal with the essentials of marketing- but what i cant deal with is, is trying to distort the facts! what part of that dont you get?

so by your logic what you are saying is similar to the idea that: "it doesnt matter that iraq didnt have WMD's because politics are essential"? now wheres the fuckin sense in that? you seem to think that the end justifies the means- and that is exactly what i have a problem with! the acceptance of this logic by sheep who dont know to think about its ethical conclusion. sure the ufc isnt the ultimate purveyor of this way of thinking- but by tools such as yourself making excuses as to why it is okay, and the ufc taking advantage of that fact leads to a social dissonance on a greater level. but whatever, this is the whole reason i was unsure of even doing this thread- i should have known that it would only be met with hostile remarks attempting to insult my intelligence- EVEN AFTER i agreed with most of what you said.

anyway, my point is that other organizations do not submit themselves to this low level marketing....

For starters, I wasn't insulting your intelligence - I just said you needed to deal with the fact they're marketing their show, so calling me a tool looks pretty desparate and childish.

And equating the marketing of a pay-per-view with the invasion of another country shows just how fucking shallow and crass you are. How fucking insulting to thouasands upon thousands of people who have DIED, soldiers and civilians alike. It's an utterly, utterly irrelevant point, badly and stupidly made.

And blaming UFC for "social dissonance" is hilarious - why don't you start calling them 'human cockfighters' while you're at it?

And the best part is - your own argument stands on feeble legs to begin with. The marketing of the show was about a returning UFC legend (are you disputing Gracie is a UFC legend now?) who is unbeaten "in the Octagon" (are you going to pretend Harold Howard "beat" him?). Please don't since I'm already mired in a semantic argument with Grant about the nature of destruction.

So its not even at all like the Iraq/WMD thing in the first place. Zuffa took two FACTS and presented them in as attractive a way as possible. They didn't rely on faulty intelligence reports of what was going on Royce's gym did they? They didn't rely on their past knowledge of what a murderous tyrant was capable of (partly since the only tyrant here is Dana White anyway) and most impoprtantly, they didn't outright lie and cause misery to millions (though I'm sure it saddened plenty of Royce fans.)

Finally, "other organizations do not submit themselves to this low level marketing" - WHAT???? How about the KOTC naked ring girls PPV? How about the ACF Kerr-Sims fiasco? How about the borderline criminally negligent stuff Pride have done in the past, like the Goodridge-Yatsu rematch? How about putting actors and comedians in fights as K-1 and Pride have done?

How about Pride's marketing of the OWGP as "the best 16 fighters in the world from all weight divisions"? That was FAR worse than the Hughes-Gracie hype when it comes to truth, ethics and factual distortion.

How about the WCFC show that took place an hour away from my house (the one with Mike Tyson refereeing) that potentially set acceptance of MMA in the UK back years and actively courted negative press with its UFC c. 1993 marketing? That disgusted me so much I made a conscious decision not to attend what looked like being one of the most important and significant MMA shows in UK history. Yet you call me a tool and a sheep who thinks the end justifies the means?

[heckyl]

Boobs, that means your OS is toast. reinstall windows man. if you dont have it, PM me.

[loreia]

^^
First thhings first.
Boot in safe mode (keep hitting F8 key while booting, then select Safe mode option).
This will bring windows on without drivers. Now you can uninstall stuff you susspect on (some program or game recently installed, games are particulary nasty as they tend to replace original windows dll files with their own copies).

If this doesn't help restart and repeat F8 routine, but this time select "Load last known good configuration" (or something similar) and then try to restart.

If this still doesn't help, try this.
Take windows instalation CD, reboot and when instalation program kicks in, select repair option.

Only if all this doesn't help, reinstall your copy of windows.

These few steps can save your life, and are relatively easy to be performed even by acomputer illeterate.

If all this fails, you can either:
1. Find somebody to fix it for you.
2. Send to hell your C: partition (both OS and all data on C: partition) and reinstall OS

Hope this helps

[Herbo]

Boobs- if you do reinstall windows, put it on a seperate partition. Have a windows only drive of about 10gb so if you have something like this again you can just do a reinstall and you dont lose your shit.

[( o Y o )]

Cheers guys.....should I (in the ten minutes it lets me on before crashing) start moving shit to an external hard drive before doing all this? I have a shitload of stuff in here not copied over yet.

[Herbo]

If its windows XP theres an option to just install over the existing OS. This means you shouldnt lose to much. I dont like it though and it may not even fix your problem. Id transfer the files and reformat to multiple partitoins.

[( o Y o )]

thx.....I crashed just making that last post and am currently on my wifes dial up crap without a mouse. I will start trying to move some stuff tomorrow but it seems to be giving me less time each time I boot it.

[Herbo]

cool np mate. Ill be up all night if you need anything. I can even remote takeover your PC if you are connected to the net :)

[( o Y o )]

and give you access to my por.....MMA video's???? :-) LOL

Thanks for the ofeer mate, but I am rooted from work so am ging to bed now...thought I`d start ealing with this tomorrow lunch time-ish and see what I can do. I have a feeling I`ll be back and you guys asking for help damn soon though! lol

[Herbo]

This thread REALLY got hijacked. Nice.

[somewhere in time]

For starters, I wasn't insulting your intelligence - I just said you needed to deal with the fact they're marketing their show, so calling me a tool looks pretty desparate and childish.

And equating the marketing of a pay-per-view with the invasion of another country shows just how fucking shallow and crass you are. How fucking insulting to thouasands upon thousands of people who have DIED, soldiers and civilians alike. It's an utterly, utterly irrelevant point, badly and stupidly made.

And blaming UFC for "social dissonance" is hilarious - why don't you start calling them 'human cockfighters' while you're at it?

And the best part is - your own argument stands on feeble legs to begin with. The marketing of the show was about a returning UFC legend (are you disputing Gracie is a UFC legend now?) who is unbeaten "in the Octagon" (are you going to pretend Harold Howard "beat" him?). Please don't since I'm already mired in a semantic argument with Grant about the nature of destruction.

So its not even at all like the Iraq/WMD thing in the first place. Zuffa took two FACTS and presented them in as attractive a way as possible. They didn't rely on faulty intelligence reports of what was going on Royce's gym did they? They didn't rely on their past knowledge of what a murderous tyrant was capable of (partly since the only tyrant here is Dana White anyway) and most impoprtantly, they didn't outright lie and cause misery to millions (though I'm sure it saddened plenty of Royce fans.)

Finally, "other organizations do not submit themselves to this low level marketing" - WHAT???? How about the KOTC naked ring girls PPV? How about the ACF Kerr-Sims fiasco? How about the borderline criminally negligent stuff Pride have done in the past, like the Goodridge-Yatsu rematch? How about putting actors and comedians in fights as K-1 and Pride have done?

How about Pride's marketing of the OWGP as "the best 16 fighters in the world from all weight divisions"? That was FAR worse than the Hughes-Gracie hype when it comes to truth, ethics and factual distortion.

How about the WCFC show that took place an hour away from my house (the one with Mike Tyson refereeing) that potentially set acceptance of MMA in the UK back years and actively courted negative press with its UFC c. 1993 marketing? That disgusted me so much I made a conscious decision not to attend what looked like being one of the most important and significant MMA shows in UK history. Yet you call me a tool and a sheep who thinks the end justifies the means?


you are right, i shouldnt have lowered myself to name calling...

other than that, i cant continue on this argument- you are not looking into the details of my words and are taking everything at face value. this is pointless.

[FieldingMellish]

you are right, i shouldnt have lowered myself to name calling...

other than that, i cant continue on this argument- you are not looking into the details of my words and are taking everything at face value. this is pointless.

If you don't to carry on that's fine but don't try and pretend I'm not looking into what you're actually saying. I am. I just completely disagree.

[heckyl]

This thread REALLY got hijacked. Nice.

hijacked BAD. lol. not much else was going on, though.

[Lb-kid]

I think it's so obvious that every fighting org in the world tries to sell their shows as good as possible and adequate marketing efforts are part of this. It's a business, their primary goal is to make as much profit as possible and not to set up the most exciting fight cards for the hardcore fans or giving fair chances to the fighters who deserve it, to match up people evenly etc.

Moderators are paid to say that the present show is the best ever and tops the last, that the main-eventers are in the best shape ever etc., that's how it goes. They target the main audience, that's the average casual viewer not us here, so we get to see guys like Shamrock, Tank, Royce or Akebono fighting in main events and people are buying in the hype and paying to see it. K-1's ratings peaked when Akebono fought and I'm sure the PPV buys for UFC 60 were huge. They can fool the casual viewer but not soemone who is really into the sport and follows it closely. I was never excited about Hughes/Royce and I certainly wouldn't pay to watch it! But Zuffa doesn't care too much about real competitive and exciting matches that would only sell half of what Hughes/Gracie did; they make a shitload of money and can easily pay Royce the supposed 1.3 million$.

You know, I can live with that when the main event isn't after my taste at all as long as I get exciting bouts in the undercard like Fisher vs Wiman or Guillard vs Davis.

Maybe from all fighting orgs Shooto comes closest to the ideal I would wish by having a solid ranking system and having title bouts that actually make sense and are justified. But K-1, Pride and UFC have the biggest war chests and can buy all the big names and talent around. All 3 orgs have their fair share of boring main events, mismatches, freak shows etc. for the sake of audience ratings and profit.

[FieldingMellish]

I think it's so obvious that every fighting org in the world tries to sell their shows as good as possible and adequate marketing efforts are part of this. It's a business, their primary goal is to make as much profit as possible and not to set up the most exciting fight cards for the hardcore fans or giving fair chances to the fighters who deserve it, to match up people evenly etc.

Moderators are paid to say that the present show is the best ever and tops the last, that the main-eventers are in the best shape ever etc., that's how it goes. They target the main audience, that's the average casual viewer not us here, so we get to see guys like Shamrock, Tank, Royce or Akebono fighting in main events and people are buying in the hype and paying to see it. K-1's ratings peaked when Akebono fought and I'm sure the PPV buys for UFC 60 were huge. They can fool the casual viewer but not soemone who is really into the sport and follows it closely. I was never excited about Hughes/Royce and I certainly wouldn't pay to watch it! But Zuffa doesn't care too much about real competitive and exciting matches that would only sell half of what Hughes/Gracie did; they make a shitload of money and can easily pay Royce the supposed 1.3 million$.

You know, I can live with that when the main event isn't after my taste at all as long as I get exciting bouts in the undercard like Fisher vs Wiman or Guillard vs Davis.

Maybe from all fighting orgs Shooto comes closest to the ideal I would wish by having a solid ranking system and having title bouts that actually make sense and are justified. But K-1, Pride and UFC have the biggest war chests and can buy all the big names and talent around. All 3 orgs have their fair share of boring main events, mismatches, freak shows etc. for the sake of audience ratings and profit.

Excellent post.

[seese]

and give you access to my por.....MMA video's???? :-) LOL

Thanks for the ofeer mate, but I am rooted from work so am ging to bed now...thought I`d start ealing with this tomorrow lunch time-ish and see what I can do. I have a feeling I`ll be back and you guys asking for help damn soon though! lol

Told you before boobs, get a Mac.

[heckyl]

get a mac? why because they use intel architecture and can now receive the same problems as a regular PC, just they will be harder to fix?? not smawt.

[FieldingMellish]

You're all a bunch of computer nerds!!!

[loreia]

Cheers guys.....should I (in the ten minutes it lets me on before crashing) start moving shit to an external hard drive before doing all this? I have a shitload of stuff in here not copied over yet.
I didn't realize you have just one partition on you hard drive.
Anyway, there are different ways to save your data (using linux live distribution like Knopix or taking your hard drive and installing it in some other computer as a slave device), and some other ways.
Perhaps you can use something as simple as MSDOS (or one of its many replacements) in combination with NTFSDOS program which gives acces to NTFS.
But the point is all data can be saved and there is no need to format everything just because damn MS windows refuse to operate.

Just remembered this:
Can you get your hands on a copy of this program: Bart's PEBuilder (http://www.nu2.nu/).
Wiht this thing you can boot Windows to memory directly from your instalation CD. This would probably be the best option for you.

I can provide you with a copy, but no sooner than tommorow.

I'm going to bed now...

[loreia]

here it is: http://www.mysharefile.com/v/972778/Bart_S_Pe_Builder_3.0.26.zip.html
didn't have time to test it myself, but you should be fine using it :-)

[loreia]

You're all a bunch of computer nerds!!!
you have no idea..

[Grant Ellis]

I just use an external harddrive.

It's my baby :)

[heckyl]

screw you and your fiber connection and external hard drives!

[loreia]

is OYO back online?

[loreia]

Good morning,
here is a nice little tutorial how to use Bart PE (it has pictures too!!)
This should be all you need to rescue your files.
http://www.bartpe.org/PEBuilder_tutorial.php?PHPSESSID=7b0cad9aa812ed97f 7d90b40ba6de77f

cheers!

[gols]

Sorry to go back on topic, but to Fielding and others, are you saying that it is ok for the UFC to bill one of their fighters with a totally false MMA record?

[somewhere in time]

Sorry to go back on topic, but to Fielding and others, are you saying that it is ok for the UFC to bill one of their fighters with a totally false MMA record?

FINALLY, someone who gets it.

[Herbo]

Depends if they quote their record as a "UFC Record" or a "MMA Record" I didnt listen to it so I dont know what they said. Although it can be slightly misleading I think its ok for them to say "UFC Record" as different organisations have different rules.


But the the record was just totally wrong its not cool. Its hard to recognise MMA fights properly due to rule differnences all over the world and whether commisions will recognize them as an actual MMA fight etc.

Sorry for my bad english, typing this in between work :)

[seese]

get a mac? why because they use intel architecture and can now receive the same problems as a regular PC, just they will be harder to fix?? not smawt.

Dont use windows then. Its not the pc or intel to blame but the OS.

[heckyl]

Dont use windows then. Its not the pc or intel to blame but the OS.

ubuntu linux <3

[heckyl]

its not the most honest thing in the world, but meh, what ya gonna do? and why the hell would you be mad at matt hughes for?

[seese]

ubuntu linux <3

agree =D, but most users doesnt have time to learn how unix-systems works.

[heckyl]

agree =D, but most users doesnt have time to learn how unix-systems works.

shame because linux has come a long way. its really not that bad to learn and get the hang of. plus runs like a dream and i havent had a problem with a driver in ages.

[Lb-kid]

Sorry to go back on topic, but to Fielding and others, are you saying that it is ok for the UFC to bill one of their fighters with a totally false MMA record?

First of all it's not just one but this accounts for different fighters. If you think this was only the case for Royce check out different UFC's and you'll see what I mean.

Here's an example:
Melvin Guillard was announced as having a record of 37-6-3 but according to Fightfinder it's 19-5-2. Quite a difference isn't it?!
Hughes came in with 40-4 but Fightfinder shows 38-4. There are many other inconsistencies regarding records of UFC fighters. Is it the UFC's fault or the fighters or their managers? You can't be sure really. Of course the Fightfinder Database isn't accurate and complete always too.

Royce was announced as being "undefeated in the octagon" and with a 11-0 MMA record. The correct record would have been 13-2-3 and his one loss in the UFC was when they threw in the towel before the Harold Howard fight. Technically it's considered a TKO loss but I guess you could say that he's undefeated in the octagon.

Whatever the way you look at it, it's clear that you can't pin these record inconsistencies just on Royce alone because there are many more. I don't say it's okay to change records if they do this on purpose to make someone look good but it's funny that some of you guys jump on this now and act like it's only in Royce's case. Did you never notice differences in records before??

[gols]

First of all it's not just one but this accounts for different fighters. If you think this was only the case for Royce check out different UFC's and you'll see what I mean.

Here's an example:
Melvin Guillard was announced as having a record of 37-6-3 but according to Fightfinder it's 19-5-2. Quite a difference isn't it?!
Hughes came in with 40-4 but Fightfinder shows 38-4. There are many other inconsistencies regarding records of UFC fighters. Is it the UFC's fault or the fighters or their managers? You can't be sure really. Of course the Fightfinder Database isn't accurate and complete always too.

Royce was announced as being "undefeated in the octagon" and with a 11-0 MMA record. The correct record would have been 13-2-3 and his one loss in the UFC was when they threw in the towel before the Harold Howard fight. Technically it's considered a TKO loss but I guess you could say that he's undefeated in the octagon.

Whatever the way you look at it, it's clear that you can't pin these record inconsistencies just on Royce alone because there are many more. I don't say it's okay to change records if they do this on purpose to make someone look good but it's funny that some of you guys jump on this now and act like it's only in Royce's case. Did you never notice differences in records before??

This is all very true I agree, they billed Kristian from TUF as having a 40-3 record when he's not even ON fightfinder!

The difference is, these are low level fights that are hard to verify, so it's not really the fault of the UFC if they take the fighters word on it. With Royce, they were pretending that he has never even fought outside UFC, and even then they erased the loss from his record and didn't mention the draw. Funny that Rogan was contradicting this saying Royce has been fighting in Japan.

And funnier still, it seems the UFC website operator was not clued in on the scam! : http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=fighter.detail&pid=24

[FieldingMellish]

Sorry to go back on topic, but to Fielding and others, are you saying that it is ok for the UFC to bill one of their fighters with a totally false MMA record?

I never said ANYTHING about that at all. I was replying to the posts somewhere in time made regarding the promotion of this show overall, and particularly his thoughts on its 'marketing'.

UFC claiming Gracie as having an 11-0 record on the night was totally stupid but that has NOTHING to do with the actual marketing of this show. Why? Because by the time he was in there all the tickets that were going to be sold had been sold and all the PPV orders had already come in because the show was going on. I can't even begin to explain why they'd do something like that since its totally pointless and irrelevant by that point.

And somewhere in time: if that was your point all along, er, why didn't you just say that?

[heckyl]

And somewhere in time: if that was your point all along, er, why didn't you just say that?


not only that, but why the hell are you mad at matt hughes if this was the point all along??

[gols]

I never said ANYTHING about that at all. I was replying to the posts somewhere in time made regarding the promotion of this show overall, and particularly his thoughts on its 'marketing'.

UFC claiming Gracie as having an 11-0 record on the night was totally stupid but that has NOTHING to do with the actual marketing of this show. Why? Because by the time he was in there all the tickets that were going to be sold had been sold and all the PPV orders had already come in because the show was going on. I can't even begin to explain why they'd do something like that since its totally pointless and irrelevant by that point.

And somewhere in time: if that was your point all along, er, why didn't you just say that?

Ok I seem to have missed the point entirely!

[FieldingMellish]

Ok I seem to have missed the point entirely!

Thats the thing - he seems to be making points all over the place and nobody knows which ones are which.

[Grant Ellis]

First of all it's not just one but this accounts for different fighters. If you think this was only the case for Royce check out different UFC's and you'll see what I mean.

Here's an example:
Melvin Guillard was announced as having a record of 37-6-3 but according to Fightfinder it's 19-5-2. Quite a difference isn't it?!
Hughes came in with 40-4 but Fightfinder shows 38-4. There are many other inconsistencies regarding records of UFC fighters. Is it the UFC's fault or the fighters or their managers? You can't be sure really. Of course the Fightfinder Database isn't accurate and complete always too.

Royce was announced as being "undefeated in the octagon" and with a 11-0 MMA record. The correct record would have been 13-2-3 and his one loss in the UFC was when they threw in the towel before the Harold Howard fight. Technically it's considered a TKO loss but I guess you could say that he's undefeated in the octagon.

Whatever the way you look at it, it's clear that you can't pin these record inconsistencies just on Royce alone because there are many more. I don't say it's okay to change records if they do this on purpose to make someone look good but it's funny that some of you guys jump on this now and act like it's only in Royce's case. Did you never notice differences in records before??

The sherdog fightfinder isn't the end all source of MMA fights.

[TrojanStud]

Thats the thing - he seems to be making points all over the place and nobody knows which ones are which.

He got no points, we know it, he knows it, he said it in post #3 -

no, because like i said- there is no point.

He tried to make up a point cuz you gave him an oral whopping & he hates Matt Hughes cuz Royce was billed as undefeated & now it all your fault for not being openminded, see -

i cant continue on this argument- you are not looking into the details of my words

Case closed - This thread is outta whack

[Lb-kid]

The sherdog fightfinder isn't the end all source of MMA fights.

That's why I added this line: "Of course the Fightfinder Database isn't accurate and complete always too." Hoped it would prevent others from coming up with a comment like yours but it didn't work... :no:

[somewhere in time]

not only that, but why the hell are you mad at matt hughes if this was the point all along??

im not mad at anyone, i love the world...

[somewhere in time]

He got no points, we know it, he knows it, he said it in post #3 -



He tried to make up a point cuz you gave him an oral whopping & he hates Matt Hughes cuz Royce was billed as undefeated & now it all your fault for not being openminded, see -



Case closed - This thread is outta whack

you must have alot of time on your hands.

[TrojanStud]

you must have alot of time on your hands.

No - then I be starting threads like this, not just reply to the crap

[somewhere in time]

No - then I be starting threads like this, not just reply to the crap

and... YOU WIN!

[FieldingMellish]

you must have alot of time on your hands.

So, how much time do you have on your hands to actually answer the points I brought up?

You really should make an attempt since you started this whole sorry episode.

[somewhere in time]

So, how much time do you have on your hands to actually answer the points I brought up?

You really should make an attempt since you started this whole sorry episode.

and what points would those be? because as i see it, you really didnt say anything i didnt already answer...

[FieldingMellish]

and what points would those be? because as i see it, you really didnt say anything i didnt already answer...

LOL, lets start with your claim that other promotions don't use such "low level marketing tactics" and go from there shall we?

Answer that one.

[Sixtus]

You guys can be so petty sometimes, who really gives a shit?

Why doesn't a mod just lock this waste of time...