JLB Really Wants To Change History

[CentralKickboxing.Org]

OK. He lost the fight to Remy by DEC thanks to 3 Dutch judges. I saw the fight as a draw. I gave the first round to Remy, the second to neither and the third round to Jerome. I thought Jerome's margin of victory in the 3rd was greater than Remy's in the first but we know how the scoring works. 10-9 is the best the judges can do.

Jerome has made huge contributions to the sport. He is also a K-1 favorite to win every year. The K-1 has gone as far as calling him the "uncrowned champ" in addition to the "Hyper Battle Cyborg".

Now Jerome feels he did enough to beat Remy. He is disappointed with the decision. Tanikawa had the unfortunate displeasure of trying to console the cash cow. He also had the lapse in judgement to suggest that it might be overturned. Tanikawa has even stated in the media that the decision might be reversed.

While we are waiting for the official announcement, JLB and his team have toured the web stating that the decision is already reversed. MAN magazine has even posted an article on the subject. Undescerning fans are taking it as truth. "I'm glad Jerome got it finally." or "This sucks. What is the point of having judges at all." The real truth is that the K-1 has announced nothing so far. The only source I've seen so far has been JLB's own website.

I'm sure everyone has an opinion about decision reversals. I'd like to know what people think about spreading unofficial information across the web.

[AKA]

Communication.....
Internet is a very powerful weapon.
BTW when u are the boss of a company and u come see u one of ur favorite worker to promise things, u have to do it...
An info coming from the mouth of the BOSS himself should be considered like an officila one ;) No?
I repeat that at this after-event meeting, there was no JLB's requests! The people from K1 comes and talk etc... Now I hope, they simply do what they say.

[sparkles]

Let us discus the changing of the decision. Getting a loss from a fight you won is horrible for the athlete. You prepare for weeks for the fight, work again hard to win the match, you feel great because everything worked out well, confident and then boom … you opponent is announced as the winner. This is very bad for the sport and for both sportsmen. Jerome thought he won, felt great before the big crowd and then he suddenly lost. From heaven to hell. Remy may have won “on paper”, but he got booed end that’s terrible as well.

The only ones to blame are the organizers and the K-1 because they allowed 3 dutch judges to score a fight in which Bonjaski participates. That’s totally unacceptable and this way you initiate a biased decision. In boxing you will not see this kind of stuff, the also had their bad decisions in the past with judges from the same nationality as the fighter. Very unprofessional.

Reversing the decision is pretty harsh. I’ve never seen it, nor in boxing, neither in K-1 unless a foul happened. What could happen and what could be good is a NC with a rematch. This way Jerome can have his revenge and prove his point in the ring as he as always done ( for instance with Abidi) and as a real classy sportsman should.

I think it has more to do with things not going JLB wants. He had to fight Gary Goodridge, Peter Aerts in the first round finals ( a fight that was close to a draw during the regular time), now this fight, he is making movies, doing mma, all kinds of distraction that take away the motivation and distract him from his objective in K-1.

JLB = GoD

[walker]

Reversing the decision is pretty harsh. I’ve never seen it, nor in boxing, neither in K-1 unless a foul happened. What could happen and what could be good is a NC with a rematch.


I just wanted to address this part of your post, since I've been wondering about it myself. Since May 13, I've read several times that the fight should be changed to a NC, and it just does not make sense to me. The way I understand it, a NC basically means the fight never happened (hence the name) and is applied in instances where a cut, a foul, or some other occurance precluded the fight from playing out correctly. I don't think a fight that went the full three rounds and in which no such event occurred can be ruled a NC, regardless if the decision was correct or not. This is how I understand it, but maybe I'm wrong.

[Matasorapit]

Nice topic Felix,
I have not seen the recent JLB and Bonjaski fight so I cannot comment on that but... I was one of the screaming and booing people in attendance last year when Angie Parr (wifey of JWP) was ripped off by a decision. I jump online and ripped up every internet forum I could find because I thought the justification was brutal on Angie.

It must also be hard on the other fighter, providing the other fighter thought that they had actually won. The warrior thing to do would be to publically not except the win and overstand the judges and raise the real winner in victory. Jason Suttie did what I thought was "take a dive" against his last year fight against Australia's Big Chris Godzilla. Chris had won the 3 rounds yet the judges gave it a draw. In the 4th it looked to me as Jason took a dive. If this was the case then respect to Jason for allowing Chris to take the win and not allow bad judgment to prevail.

Another thing to do is to have the 3 ref's come from 3 countries (none from the land of either combantant). This may take a little extra people to attend and judge events but its fair. Well alot more fair than the current ruling system.

The ref inside the ropes also needs to enforce full juristiction ad not just against one fighter during a specific round.

Educating and incorperating more judges, just like a big boxing fight. The way K1 in every country is currently working is bias and needs to be addressed.

Good luck to JLB and his team.

Good luck to all of you.

[CentralKickboxing.Org]

I think you are right Walker. This is in no was an NC. They fought from the opening bell to the closing bell. Even if something odd happened after the first round it would be a technical decision.

BTW when u are the boss of a company and u come see u one of ur favorite worker to promise things, u have to do it...

Tanikawa is the boss of FEG. I seriously doubt that he can reverse a K-1 decision. Not only that, Dutch authorities may over-rule the change (with or without input from Remy).

It is an interesting strategy on the part of the JLB team. They are playing it out like a handshake agreement. Meanwhile, Tanikawa is bent over by Ishii and taking a canoe paddle spanking for opening his fool mouth.

[CentralKickboxing.Org]

Nice topic Felix,
I have not seen the recent JLB and Bonjaski fight so I cannot comment on that but... I was one of the screaming and booing people in attendance last year when Angie Parr (wifey of JWP) was ripped off by a decision. I jump online and ripped up every internet forum I could find because I thought the justification was brutal on Angie.

Parr actually had a case for a reversal. The judges scored her as the winner but an error at the officials table gave the fight to the opponent. In the case of JLB, the judges picked Remy as the winner. A decision reversal is actually going against the judges scoring. With Parr, it would have been correcting errors to have the results agree with the decision.

It must also be hard on the other fighter, providing the other fighter thought that they had actually won. The warrior thing to do would be to publically not except the win and overstand the judges and raise the real winner in victory. Jason Suttie did what I thought was "take a dive" against his last year fight against Australia's Big Chris Godzilla. Chris had won the 3 rounds yet the judges gave it a draw. In the 4th it looked to me as Jason took a dive. If this was the case then respect to Jason for allowing Chris to take the win and not allow bad judgment to prevail.

Jason and Chris, if I'm not mistaken, was when Dixon overruled the judges and forced the overtime. This raised huge issues. Why have judges in the first place? Did Dixon watch the whole fight or did he watch most of the fight while talking and drinking a Coke? Did Dixon replace the judges for the overtime round? Why? Why not? What were the scores for the altered 3 rounds? 30-30? 29-29? Who decides?

Another thing to do is to have the 3 ref's come from 3 countries (none from the land of either combantant). This may take a little extra people to attend and judge events but its fair. Well alot more fair than the current ruling system.

I agree, but that is how to avoid the problem next time. Even so, it isn't foolproof.

[Dado]

Lol you have a great way of putting things Felix.

[Lone Wolf]

This decision-reverse is IMO absurd. Even if it would have truly been such an obvious victory for Jerome (which IMO it wasn`t) there is no way you can reverse this and still call K1 a sport.

Back in 2004 Botha had clearly earned a victory against Jerome (much clearer than JLB`s supposed victory against Remy)...yet all he got was a draw and another round to go. I didn`t hear Jerome say anything back then.

The fact is there have been a lot weirder decisions than this one and like I`ve stated numerous times...the only way to go is a REMATCH

[Lone Wolf]

P.S: If everyone started to reverse decisions like that they could reverse the entire 2004 GRAND PRIX.

[Dado]

It must also be hard on the other fighter, providing the other fighter thought that they had actually won. The warrior thing to do would be to publically not except the win and overstand the judges and raise the real winner in victory. Jason Suttie did what I thought was "take a dive" against his last year fight against Australia's Big Chris Godzilla. Chris had won the 3 rounds yet the judges gave it a draw. In the 4th it looked to me as Jason took a dive. If this was the case then respect to Jason for allowing Chris to take the win and not allow bad judgment to prevail.

No, Suttie was beaten that time. He completely ran out of steam and could hardly stand. His dad rushed to the ring and threw the towel into the ring which Suttie was angered by.

[sparkles]

P.S: If everyone started to reverse decisions like that they could reverse the entire 2004 GRAND PRIX.


Impossible in a tournament that took place, because there are more matches that follow. This was 1 fight, a superfight. I also disagree that with the fact that Botha clearly beat Jerome despite thet fact that Botha dominated boxingwise from midway through. I advise you should count the kicks that Jerome landed.

[Anjew]

I saw a draw in JLB vs Remy fight. Talking about robbery here is far too much. If they change it to a draw Jerome shouldn't feel robbed at all, IMO... About changing results generally - in a superfight there are no real consequences, but in qualifiers it's not a good idea, in tournaments impossible.

[Lone Wolf]

Impossible in a tournament that took place, because there are more matches that follow. This was 1 fight, a superfight. I also disagree that with the fact that Botha clearly beat Jerome despite thet fact that Botha dominated boxingwise from midway through. I advise you should count the kicks that Jerome landed.

I agree about the kicks but a down is a down.

[CentralKickboxing.Org]

Impossible in a tournament that took place, because there are more matches that follow. This was 1 fight, a superfight. I also disagree that with the fact that Botha clearly beat Jerome despite thet fact that Botha dominated boxingwise from midway through. I advise you should count the kicks that Jerome landed.

When Jerrel Vennetiaan tested positive for steroids, all three of his wins were reversed to DQ losses. The Swiss authorities did this. Tournaments don't protect anyone from the law.

[CentralKickboxing.Org]

No, Suttie was beaten that time. He completely ran out of steam and could hardly stand. His dad rushed to the ring and threw the towel into the ring which Suttie was angered by.

Sorry. I'm confusing myself and probably others. Which fight did Jason win but Dixon overruled?

[Dado]

Do you mean overruled to go an extension or overruled the decision of the fight?

That fight was reasonably close but as I remember Chris was trading with Jason and Suttie was getting weaker as the fight wore on. It got an extra round and Suttie was knocked down with a punch/low kick and couldnt stand for some time and then his dad rushed to the ring and threw the towel in.

[matman]

Re: Suttie Chrisopoulides - as Zanzoken said it was close after 3. The judges scored a draw and an extension was given. The judges scored the extension round as Jason's but as Felix said, Dixon over-ruled the decision and the fight went to another extension round. Jason had absolutely nothing left in the tank and Zanzoken is correct about the events from there.

I can't imagine a set of circumstances where Suttie would ever take a 'dive', as was suggested above and it was a very different situation. He legitimately won the 4th round, then Dixon over-ruled the decision and Jason was legitimately beaten in a not so legit 5th round (if that makes sense). Dixon later stated on line that he shouldn't have over-ruled the Dec. but there was never any discussion of changing the result. Jason just defeated Chrisopoulides in a rematch a couple of weeks ago

[HolyRamenEmpire]

Ideally, having a re-match is ideal, whether they change the results or not. As a JLB fan, I thought JLB won, by a slight bit. But, overall, the safe call would have been a "draw". The FEG boss isn't the absolute boss of a match result. And the fighter as a contractual worker is not guaranteed fair satisfaction of a match result. A fighter may complain, a FEG executive may say this or that, but the match result retains a certain degree of independence, that is centrally regulated by rules and precendences. Result changes can legitimately be discussed within the framework of rules and precendences, not by executive narratives.

All that said... if the rules do get changed by executive decision... to a draw... that'll be, okay... if, to a win for JLB, then, fine... Problematic, controversial, but hey, if it happens, not much we can do about it. Just means JLB gathered that much political power, and has enough case for himself... Regardless of the decision, I'd hope they'll be a re-match. Whatever. People saw the fight. The minimum I demand from a fighting org is to leave a fight go through to the end with minimal foul play, and minimal negative interference. The judge can say whatever, the viewers can also be judge, and history will be the final judge.

Hayato vs Black Mamba. BM dominated Hayato. Hayato back spinned, knocked BM down. Hayato won, fair and square. Whatever. BM is better than Hayato. BM can kick Hayato's ass 9 out of 10 days. I know it. BM'll keep coming back, cause we know what his worth. Offical match results aren't the judges of all.

Summary:
-JLB deserves a draw
-JLB and Remy should re-match regardless of result or change
-JLB is an exciting fighter, more than Remy
-Regardless of the result, everyone saw the fight, and can make their own judgement of each fighters, and that's the essential
-Beyond this controversial, and exceptional issue, I look forward to great fights
-The minimum I ask from a fighting league is to be fairly fair during a bout, so that the viewers can judge themselves

[Matasorapit]

I can't imagine a set of circumstances where Suttie would ever take a 'dive', as was suggested above and it was a very different situation. He legitimately won the 4th round, then Dixon over-ruled the decision and Jason was legitimately beaten in a not so legit 5th round (if that makes sense). Dixon later stated on line that he shouldn't have over-ruled the Dec. but there was never any discussion of changing the result. Jason just defeated Chrisopoulides in a rematch a couple of weeks ago

Thanks for clearing that up for me Matt.