LeBanner/Bonjasky (spoiler)

[Aldrich]

LeBanner posted on his Brazilian Klans forum that japanese K-1 officials apologized to him for the decision and apparently told him that the result will be changed and that he'll be the winner.

Now, not to bitch or anything, but I'd like to know on what criteria Bonjasky won that fight. I had him beaten in agression and workrate, both fighters were pretty even as far as accuracy was concerned though JLB did land some body shots. JLB pushed the fight during all three rounds and the only noticeable blows Bonjasky threw were middlekicks landing on the forearm.

[heckyl]

it was hometown cookin criteria. he didnt win that fight in anyway possible.

[AKA]

I officially confirm what Aldrich says...
Tanigawa apologize for the wrong decision ( apologize coz 100% of the judges were dutch if I heard well) and said they will try to change the dec.
Simon Rutz was pissed off by this dec... and by many other things, I'll write something today or the day after, now I sleep!

p.s: the Sapp story is FUCKING CRAZY. More crazy than u can even imagine. BTW I will not say too much about that....

[Jofeljoh!]

Has it ever occured that a decision has been turned around afterwards in K-1? (sorry, I can't think of any right now)

[heckyl]

thats a good question Jof. i dont recall anytime either where a decision was later reversed over the judges ruling...

[El Presidente]

K-1 should make a formal announcement if the result is reverse. I remember they made a public statement when the Bernardo fight in 2001 was changed to a NC.

[Toffa]

Good news, after seeing the fight there was no doubt in my mind that Jerome had won. Looks like justice has been served :)

[CentralKickboxing.Org]

I gave Remy the first round and Jerome the last round. The second round would have been the deciding round.

Did I hear correctly that one judge scored it 30-21 for Remy? I know drugs are legal in Holland, but he must have taken a lot to hallucinate 2 knockdowns every round.

[Dado]

I think thats stupid. A decision is a decision no point having it over turned now.

Jerome didnt dominate by any stretch of the imagination so I dont see Tanigawa apologizing to him or especially turning the decision.

The fight was a draw at best for me.

[heckyl]

30-21????!??!?!??!? wow........ not much to say there but wow.

[Mago]

^ Funny, man. :) I also got the impression Jerome won that fight. I know Remy is definetly a very humble and nice person, but I disliked the obssession for right body kicks, which were making HUGE impacts on Jerome's left forearm. Im not acusing him of intentionaly trying to re-brake Jerome's arm, maybe it was just me expecting he wouldn't kick much there plainly because of all LeBanner went through to heal from that injury... Also, Bonjasky certainly has the tendency to fire a lot of mid kicks to get himself going, so maybe thatll explain it. In his fight against Ignashov there were talks about Alexey's injured knee (right one) and I clinically watched the fight and he never really went for his rear (right) leg with his numerous low kicks, although nobody would keep him from doing so if he wanted...

A lot of people is also ignoring him his due props for giving LeBanner quite a hard fight (I thought Jerome won, but BARELY, he was slowing down a lot!) while injured in such a limiting place, the ankle. Bonjasky is constantly proving he is very very brave, just because he actually don't make a fuss about it himself, people fail to recognize it I guess.

[HolyRamenEmpire]

Some people think Remy won the fight because he threw a bunch of kicks to JLBs arms. That's all Remy has in his advantage. Arm kicks. And I don't quite agree with that balance sheet.

[HolyRamenEmpire]

Remy's blocked kicks could count as an effective attack if Remy could actually capitalize on its effect. But he didn't. He tried to imitate Aerts, but failed, both in style, and in damage. His attitude of kicking the arm in a mediocre fashion and circling away was both cheap and more Musashi than Aerts.

I do hope K1 will get a NC for this fight. I doubt they can reverse the result... On the other hand, they may have said things just to calm JLB down... But then, I do feel that this match could get the NC...

JLB won!

I'd have wished for a rd4!

Re-match.

[Toffa]

Some people think Remy won the fight because he threw a bunch of kicks to JLBs arms. That's all Remy has in his advantage. Arm kicks. And I don't quite agree with that balance sheet.

I totally agree. Props to Remy for hanging in there with Jerome but in no way did he win.

[unicorn]

Now ok I will sound discordant with the voice of all. I really do apologize if this sounds offending (including and mostly for Jerome's manager here present). My view looks like :

There was no damage criteria apliable for both fighters.
This elliminated, I followed the match on slow motion.

My conclusion :

Whilst Jerome kept bulldozing Remy for all but the last minute of the third round, Remy capitalized on what could be seen (by me too if i'd have been judge) as valid hits. Not all the hits of Remy struck Jerome's forearms, there were on each round several which did connect.
Jerome's punch attacks a) did not inflict visibile and immediate damage b) did not inflict delayed damage like drowsiness, draining of gas etc. Remy kept poised and light on feet from beggining to end.

Remy started as agressed and finished more like agressor. If we look at who was weathering storm on ropes it looks like top to bottom Jerome. If we look at a) hits b) connected hits c) variety of arsenal d) evolution of validable hits from isolated to series then Remy got an edge. I (kindly) disagree with Felix that scoring could grant Jerome the last round. In the last round Remy had only 2 attacks of Jerome unanswered (at least pro-forma, but even a pro-forma answer does say "there was no serious damage taken"), as for the rest he a) stole back points by backfiring b) scored even a couple of punches c) hit on series.

I can't appreciate how much this did took a toll on Jerome. No one who was not ringside and then with him at the locker can. Thus again I apologize in advance if someone feels offended. I just want to point (being myself a judge) how the match could act on the judges' eyes taking into account what we all know : judges can't judge on pbp but on instantaneous impression. With that said, Remy could have taken a 1 point edge due to a) arsenal b) series c) defensive, that is - minor criteria. It is to be observed that for the last minute of R III Remy held the center and stood to trading and this was visibly a tactical outcome.

My conclusions : 3X3 is more than expected by all a pestilent system. Jerome has all the credit for being the tough man of the match. Remy should be granted his, for being able to withstand such an opponent.

My 0.02 Euro's :)

[heckyl]

meh. bringing the storm > withstanding the storm.

[BEEF]

LeBanner posted on his Brazilian Klans forum that japanese K-1 officials apologized to him for the decision and apparently told him that the result will be changed and that he'll be the winner.

Now, not to bitch or anything, but I'd like to know on what criteria Bonjasky won that fight. I had him beaten in agression and workrate, both fighters were pretty even as far as accuracy was concerned though JLB did land some body shots. JLB pushed the fight during all three rounds and the only noticeable blows Bonjasky threw were middlekicks landing on the forearm.


Wow that is crazy... Thanks for the info. A few more days and I get to buy the event from my trusty Japanese market.

[HolyRamenEmpire]

I'd have to watch the fight again. Of course, I've been speaking based on the impression of the TV showing.

Most of Remy's attacks hit JLB's arms (whatever part of it). I agree that JLB's attacks weren't deadly. They weren't clearly decisive. But I think they landed a little more than Remy's attacks, and by landed, I mean somewhere else than the arms. Tanikawa was mentioning that JLB's body blow was effecting Remy. I don't know.

Remy was light on his foot cause he was mostly circling away, trying not to get damaged. They didn't bang it out, that's for sure. JLB slowed down as usual, I didn't feel Remy was a major factor in slowing JLB down. I got to see the fight again...

But, for now, I still vote for JLB. Beyond that, I'd vote for a DRAW, just cause JLB did land and was the aggressor figure most times but didn't inflict conclusive damage, and Remy landed less, but didn't do much damage either.

Now ok I will sound discordant with the voice of all. I really do apologize if this sounds offending (including and mostly for Jerome's manager here present). My view looks like :

There was no damage criteria apliable for both fighters.
This elliminated, I followed the match on slow motion.

My conclusion :

Whilst Jerome kept bulldozing Remy for all but the last minute of the third round, Remy capitalized on what could be seen (by me too if i'd have been judge) as valid hits. Not all the hits of Remy struck Jerome's forearms, there were on each round several which did connect.
Jerome's punch attacks a) did not inflict visibile and immediate damage b) did not inflict delayed damage like drowsiness, draining of gas etc. Remy kept poised and light on feet from beggining to end.

Remy started as agressed and finished more like agressor. If we look at who was weathering storm on ropes it looks like top to bottom Jerome. If we look at a) hits b) connected hits c) variety of arsenal d) evolution of validable hits from isolated to series then Remy got an edge. I (kindly) disagree with Felix that scoring could grant Jerome the last round. In the last round Remy had only 2 attacks of Jerome unanswered (at least pro-forma, but even a pro-forma answer does say "there was no serious damage taken"), as for the rest he a) stole back points by backfiring b) scored even a couple of punches c) hit on series.

I can't appreciate how much this did took a toll on Jerome. No one who was not ringside and then with him at the locker can. Thus again I apologize in advance if someone feels offended. I just want to point (being myself a judge) how the match could act on the judges' eyes taking into account what we all know : judges can't judge on pbp but on instantaneous impression. With that said, Remy could have taken a 1 point edge due to a) arsenal b) series c) defensive, that is - minor criteria. It is to be observed that for the last minute of R III Remy held the center and stood to trading and this was visibly a tactical outcome.

My conclusions : 3X3 is more than expected by all a pestilent system. Jerome has all the credit for being the tough man of the match. Remy should be granted his, for being able to withstand such an opponent.

My 0.02 Euro's :)

[Shinbone]

It was a draw to me. I would give remy round 1, 2nd round a draw and 3 rd Jerome.

I was there live but judging from a distance is pretty tough.

I felt sorry for JLB, it must have been a real bummer.

[Lone Wolf]

Alright, I`ve just seen the fight and I don`t see what the big problem is.

After all the bitching about Remy`s win I expected to see a fight more like 80% dominated by Jerome...instead what I saw was a VERY close fight in which Remy may or may not have had a slight advantage.

Thing is...it`s a hometown decision,ok...but not an absurd one. If the same fight would have been in Paris and if Jerome would have won it Remy`s fans would be the ones complaining.

I think the stupidest thing to do would be to reverse the decision as,like I`ve stated in some other threads...this is NOT WWE!!!
And what`s Jerome`s problem lately? He`s complaining about every decision he loses...I think he`s just pissed that he couldn`t do better against a Bonjasky that was below 100% (though better than last time) anyway. If he would have indeed been the better man of the 2 it would have shown waaaay more clearly and would not have left room for speculation.

On top of that...Jerome`s constant gesture of raising his hand and trying to comunicate with the crowd proves that he knew just how close the match was and was trying to get some support...if he would have indeed been confident about his win he would have calmly waited for the decision like he usually does.

I think the fair way to settle the dispute would be a rematch in Japan..heck, they could even make it a five rounder.

[AKA]

If they do NOT reverse the decision, JLB will leave K1.........
Thats official: Source me + JLB + Olivier Muller (main manager he takes care of the contracts while I take care of sponsoring and communication etc...)

[AKA]

On top of that...Jerome`s constant gesture of raising his hand and trying to comunicate with the crowd proves that he knew just how close the match was and was trying to get some support...if he would have indeed been confident about his win he would have calmly waited for the decision like he usually does.


BS, he just loved the arena crowd, he get a crazy ovation. In Japan audience are more quiet, this time audience was crazy and he loved that.

[Toffa]

After all the bitching about Remy`s win I expected to see a fight more like 80% dominated by Jerome...instead what I saw was a VERY close fight in which Remy may or may not have had a slight advantage.



If in your opinion Remy did have a slight advantage please do tell us in which area this was, other than his ability to shy away from exchanges.

[Jofeljoh!]

BS, he just loved the arena crowd, he get a crazy ovation. In Japan audience are more quiet, this time audience was crazy and he loved that.


Really? I agree that the people loved JLB, but for the rest I really hated the crowd that night at several moments. I also always assumed that the Japanese crowd ALWAYS makes noise, cheering at all times, etc, while the crowd in Holland mostly is a bit spoiled and can really be quiet or even booing and whistling at times.

But you say that they are actually more quiet in Japan?

[Shinbone]

If they do NOT reverse the decision, JLB will leave K1.........
Thats official: Source me + JLB + Olivier Muller (main manager he takes care of the contracts while I take care of sponsoring and communication etc...)

Oh my God.

[Lone Wolf]

If they do NOT reverse the decision, JLB will leave K1.........
Thats official: Source me + JLB + Olivier Muller (main manager he takes care of the contracts while I take care of sponsoring and communication etc...)

Look, I like Jerome, I really do. He`s one of my favorite fighters...but what you just said is blackmailing. I consider that the match was too close to call, that it could have gone either way and that the honorable thing for Jerome to do, if indeed he feels he was stolen out of a win, is to demand that K1 offer him a rematch in JAPAN.

But threatening to leave if he`s not awarded a victory...I thought that would be below JLB.

[Lone Wolf]

BS, he just loved the arena crowd, he get a crazy ovation. In Japan audience are more quiet, this time audience was crazy and he loved that.

In this case, I apologize. It seemed to me that he was nervous about the decision but I guess I was wrong.

[CentralKickboxing.Org]

If they do NOT reverse the decision, JLB will leave K1.........
Thats official: Source me + JLB + Olivier Muller (main manager he takes care of the contracts while I take care of sponsoring and communication etc...)

I like Jerome but no fighter is bigger than the sport. Gretzky wasn't bigger than hockey. Jordan wasn't bigger than basketball. We don't see Jordan or Gretzky quitting the game over a judges dispute.


The decision should stand as is. The last thing we need is a primadonna. Or I should say another primadonna besides Sapp. Jerome already cashed in his "overturn any decision" card in 2001 vs Bernardo. Twice will become a pattern.

[Jofeljoh!]

besides that, what would be next... this would be a serious precedent and then we'll get a lot of disputes after the fights...

[Lone Wolf]

Next thing you know Aerts will demand the decision in his fight with Hoost be reversed...or else =P

[Lone Wolf]

If in your opinion Remy did have a slight advantage please do tell us in which area this was, other than his ability to shy away from exchanges.

Shy away from exchanges? I guess you really dislike Kaoklai then, don`t you?

Who do you think should have won the Filho-TOA fight? Should Filho have lost bcause he was constantly backing away as he was kicking his much larger and much more powerful oponent?

[Aldrich]

Shy away from exchanges? I guess you really dislike Kaoklai then, don`t you?

Who do you think should have won the Filho-TOA fight? Should Filho have lost bcause he was constantly backing away as he was kicking his much larger and much more powerful oponent?

Oh come on... Kaoklai is 60lbs lighter than Remy, and even him gets slagged off for his fighting style.

You didn't reply to the question though. What did Remy do to win this fight? Here's how K-1 awards points, according to their official rules:

(1) Number of downs
(2) Extent of damage inflicted on the opponent
(3) Number of clean hits
(4) Degree of aggressiveness (points in the offensive)

I had LeBanner the clear winner in (2) (Bonjasky was limping afterwards and went straight to the hospital) (3) (body shots, lowkicks) and (4) (no need for an explanation here).

Now if LeBanner really threatened to leave K-1 (which may not be the case, from what I read Tanikawa came immediatly to see him and apologize without LeBanner previously threatening to go to Pride), I agree that it looks like blackmailing and it's weak. On the other hand LeBanner did enough for K-1 not to be treated like a journeyman who's here to get the former champ's career back on track.

And for the record: I'd like it better if the result was changed to a no contest and these two got a rematch in Japan.

[Dado]

I had LeBanner the clear winner in (2) (Bonjasky was limping afterwards and went straight to the hospital) (3) (body shots, lowkicks) and (4) (no need for an explanation here).

Remy injured his ankle badly and could hardly stand on it. Its not something inflicted by Jerome.

Lowkicks? Im sorry?

Body Shots? Granted Jerome did attack the body but I didnt see any immediate or delayed effect from his punching, especially not his body shots.

If they do NOT reverse the decision, JLB will leave K1.........
Thats official: Source me + JLB + Olivier Muller (main manager he takes care of the contracts while I take care of sponsoring and communication etc...)

Leaving like that just screws over his fans. If he feels so confident he won why doesent he just rematch Bonjasky? He wasnt blatantly robbed like the idiots on Sherdog are squabbling about.

Im not trying to be against Jerome, I like him and his fights especially but this just seems ridiculous, Im guessing its just some heated talk from him since Its understandable that he is upset.

[Aldrich]

Body Shots? Granted Jerome did attack the body but I didnt see any immediate or delayed effect from his punching, especially not his body shots.

It doesn't matter if it had effect or not, he still connected with them, while Bonjasky never hit something else than his guard.

Look, it may not have been total domination by LeBanner, he may not deserve to win, but Bonjasky certainly doesn't deserve it more than him. That's all I'm saying.

[Lone Wolf]

Oh come on... Kaoklai is 60lbs lighter than Remy, and even him gets slagged off for his fighting style.

You didn't reply to the question though. What did Remy do to win this fight? Here's how K-1 awards points, according to their official rules:

(1) Number of downs
(2) Extent of damage inflicted on the opponent
(3) Number of clean hits
(4) Degree of aggressiveness (points in the offensive)

I had LeBanner the clear winner in (2) (Bonjasky was limping afterwards and went straight to the hospital) (3) (body shots, lowkicks) and (4) (no need for an explanation here).

Now if LeBanner really threatened to leave K-1 (which may not be the case, from what I read Tanikawa came immediatly to see him and apologize without LeBanner previously threatening to go to Pride), I agree that it looks like blackmailing and it's weak. On the other hand LeBanner did enough for K-1 not to be treated like a journeyman who's here to get the former champ's career back on track.

And for the record: I'd like it better if the result was changed to a no contest and these two got a rematch in Japan.

And you didn`t reply to my Francisco Filho/TOA comment.

The fact is, what you see as agressivness, I see as literally "going forward"!
Bonjasky retreated because that`s what you do when the bigger, more powerful opponent comes toward you but he was hitting all the time. And yes, he chose to kick instead of punch which is logical since his punching is crap. If he would have tried to box with Jerome he`d get KO`d and you`d call him an idiot.
Now as far as I know (and I maybe wrong...but...) kicks are awarded more than punches in K1. Remy chose to use the kicks almost exclusively but that is the way he constructed his match. Furthermore, he got a few very clean hits in which is more than I can say for Jerome.

Mind you, I like JLB a lot more than I like Remy but this is the case here. It was a very close fight and Remy got the JD...JLB is really going about this the completely wrong way by blackmailing K1

[Aldrich]

And you didn`t reply to my Francisco Filho/TOA comment.

I didn't see this fight.

Now as far as I know (and I maybe wrong...but...) kicks are awarded more than punches in K1.

I was under the impression it's the exact contrary. Wasn't Buakaw's defeat against Souwer for ex explained by the fact K-1 doesn't judge like muay thai and that middlekicks landing on the forearm don't count?

[HolyRamenEmpire]

Remy was backing up, like a smart fighter. He avoided the exchange. What did he do instead? He mainly threw kicks that landed on JLB's arms (whatever part of it). And the aim of kicks were partly to hurt JLB's injured arm. Remy was imitating Aerts. But with less intensity. And I didn't see him capitalize.

JLB blocked Remy's kicks, kept coming forward, and landed body shots. By the last round, they both landed some low/middle kicks. Tanikawa ringside commented during the fight that (1) JLB's body punches were effective, and (2) JLB's low kicks were hurting. Not a big testimony, but that's one reference.

K1 seems to value a lot of punches, while they respect low and high kicks that really damage the opponent. I have mixed feelings about their view of single middle kicks. But that's a bit irrelevant as most of Remy's kicks were BLOCKED. And JLB was still swinging during the last round.

If you want to speak about injuries, then you can throw in JLB's arm injury. Remy didn't come limping to the ring. Nor did he minimize # of kicking to avoid re-injurying his ankle. Remy was in a bad deal I guess. Cause he didn't have the alternative to punch it off with JLB. But I wouldn't jump to conclude that Remy's post-fight limping was "just a natural course of event independent from JLBs efforts". I just don't know how much JLB contributed to getting Remy hurt again.

What's sure is, JLB kept the pressure, and Remy focused on long-range kicks, plus some counters, that mainly missed. Remy had the chance to time his attack, cause you know JLB is just coming right at you, but Remy couldn't capitalize.

The match was close, but I don't give it to Remy, cause again, and again, he mainly threw kicks that were blocked.

All this said,
I think one can easily count all the blocked and not blocked kicks and punches. The fight wasn't that action packed, thx to Remy doing a fine job circling away.

I don't agree with JLB wanting to walk away from K1 over this fight.
He should just pressure K1 to give him a re-match,
cause the fight should have gone to an extra round anyways.
It was supposed to be a draw.
JLB did land body punches, but unlike Tanikawa,
I didn't see major damage.

The best K1 can do is to NC the fight,
but hell, it was close enough to be a draw.
A reversal would be problematic for the future of the sport.

If JLB do want to stick to the drastic demand,
then someone should count the exact # of lands and blocks,
with a footnote about their possible impact or the cleanness of the land.

[depechemode]

BS, he just loved the arena crowd, he get a crazy ovation. In Japan audience are more quiet, this time audience was crazy and he loved that.

AKA what I want to ask u is , what was JLB's gameplan ?

he had several chances to counter on Bonjasky but he didnt
he just throw 2 punches and moved back

he was the better of 2 bad fighters at that night,it could annonced as a dwaw but there is no way for me to give the fight to Remy

[technocrat]

I gave the fight to JLB after 3 rounds, but it was close. Calling it a robbery is just stupid, because JLB didn't dominate or bring Remy into serious trouble.

The way I saw it sitting in the Arena. First round I would give to Remy on work rate, because he was more active with his kicks in the beginning. JLB was walking forward, but never landed anything serious as well.
Second round I would give to JLB, because Remy was very passive. He got too predictable, threw less kicks and JLB was pressing more and threw more punches, but again never bringing Remy into trouble.
The third round Remy started with a series of kicks and even used a few weak short hooks. But after a minute JBL took over and started landing punches and even a few hard lowkicks (why doesn't he do that more? it worked against goodridge) and Remy didn't do much, besides covering up, but again never in trouble. I gave the last round to JLB.

This is how I saw it (from memory). But I have to admit I wasn't that close to the ring and I didn't look at the big screen, but straight at the ring.

[AKA]

Well, today JLB is still a K1 fighter.
Mister Tanikawa comes and apologies even before any complain.
And if JLB wanted to leave K1 and doesnt even complain..its NOT just ABOUT 1 fights, its about many things...
JLB think, its not normal Ernesto was in the final in 2002. JLB think that he won vs Aerts and that they were no need for an extra round. (he said he clearly lost the extra round). He said wtf I am not in semi vs Musashi and Ernesto + Chalid were in the next fight after losing... (I know that in Holland the reserve fighter did fight this time)

[Shinbone]

AKA, and now, what are the consequences, what will happen in the future if I may ask?

[AKA]

Now, K1 said they will give him the win...as he deserve imho.
For now, JLB is a K1 fighter and dont want to leave K1. He wait news from Japan.
Does Tanikawa will make what he promised.....we wait and see!

[Lone Wolf]

Well, Jerome`s right about Hoost, and about Chalid. I`ve stated many times that it`s not normal for a fighter who LOST a match to advance...that`s what reserve fights are for. But he`s NOT right about this and demanding a decision to be REVERSED is a very serious issue. Fact is, if Jerome would have really been this much above Remy, he could have finished him off by KO like Schilt did...then noone would have any doubts. But the fact is that the match is way too close and K1 can turn around any decision they want there is still never gonna be a CLEAR winner in that match.

[AKA]

Well, Jerome`s right about Hoost, and about Chalid. I`ve stated many times that it`s not normal for a fighter who LOST a match to advance...that`s what reserve fights are for. But he`s NOT right about this and demanding a decision to be REVERSED is a very serious issue. Fact is, if Jerome would have really been this much above Remy, he could have finished him off by KO like Schilt did...then noone would have any doubts. But the fact is that the match is way too close and K1 can turn around any decision they want there is still never gonna be a CLEAR winner in that match.
OK, he didnt ask anything.... He was pised off and when Jerome is mad he says nothing.
Tanikawa went to meet us after the fight when we were back at the hotel.
He said that JLB won, thats it was a big mistake, that the 3 judges were from Holland, he apologizes.
We said if the decision is wrong just change it! He said he will work that back in Japan.

Now we wait and see. But trust me that something is gonna happens. K1 move or JLB move. Simple, normal and logical.

[CentralKickboxing.Org]

Well, Jerome`s right about Hoost, and about Chalid. I`ve stated many times that it`s not normal for a fighter who LOST a match to advance...that`s what reserve fights are for.

Actually, Jerome is wrong about Hoost and Chalid. Hoost didn't replace an injured Sapp. he replaced an injured Holm. Chalid took advantage of the fact that there are no reserve fighters going into the final. Either Chalid goes or Gary takes the prize by default.

[HolyRamenEmpire]

I saw the fight via the Japanese TV showing, and as I mentioned in my post, Tanikawa was evaluating the fight in favor of JLB. And indeed, there was a Japanese ref that was arguing something with the side judges. And the decision seemed to have taken a long time. JLB raising his hand looked to me like a gesture of confidence and also of playfulness. I also expected his win or a draw.

I wouldn't be surprised if Tanikawa did indeed visit JLB before any real complaints.

The 1st rd work load of Remy didn't impress me. Why? Because his kicks didn't seem intended to land beyond the arms. They were mostly not an effort at landing but kicks thrown knowing it would hit mostly in the arms. Why arms? To take advantage of JLB's injury. Aerts style. Classic. Same stuff. (Repeat mode.)

Blocked kicks to me are in general neutralized kicks. I see blocks also as one positive action. Threw a kick + blocked a kick = near zero. Sure, I can give a bit more credit if the former was trying to get around the block, while the latter was too getting stuck, and punch bagged. But meh, Remy wasn't mixing punches enough, nor was he throwing different types of kicks to shift JLB's attention, and JLB kept moving forward.

I think Remy was playing it safe, throwing middle kicks, on the arms, as that would keep JLB's arms stuck in one position. And what do we get afterall? JLB is still punching combos in the last round. He finished it a little harder than Remy.

Remy spent the 1st rd working to nullify JLB's arms, and he failed to take advantage of it in the last rounds.

Again, one can count all the landed strikes... vs blocked strikes... with notes about nature of the strike (aim, possible impact, offensive/evasive...), and produce a little more objective review...

If they called it a draw, I think JLB could still accept it. But a loss, nah. Especially not at this stage of his career. His getting a mixed record, with people calling him overrated (Black Rhino). And many people apparently thought he won, by a bit, but by enough.

One question beyond this match is, what would have happened if JLB fought on in boxing? JLB seem to gass out after 3rds at best. Even taking in consideration the kicks that land on his arms, he seem to gass too quick for boxing. What's the problem? Could he handle the long boxing rds against a tough opponent?

[HolyRamenEmpire]

Actually, Jerome is wrong about Hoost and Chalid. Hoost didn't replace an injured Sapp. he replaced an injured Holm. Chalid took advantage of the fact that there are no reserve fighters going into the final. Either Chalid goes or Gary takes the prize by default.

You say there was no reserve fight. But what's this?

"Tournament Reserve Fight: Alexandre Pitchkounov defeated Patrick Barry - Majority Decision, Three Rounds"
(I'm asking.)

I don't think that matters as this is what K1 used as their reasoning:

"The K-1 rule that specifies that the loser of a bout will take the place of that fightÍs winner should the victor be unable to continue his effort in the following tournament round was called into effect."

I guess the reserve fighter would replace only if both the above winner and lose couldn't fight on...?

source of quote:
http://www.k-1usa.net/docs/news/news.asp?news_id=412

[CentralKickboxing.Org]

You say there was no reserve fight. But what's this?

"Tournament Reserve Fight: Alexandre Pitchkounov defeated Patrick Barry - Majority Decision, Three Rounds"
(I'm asking.)

I don't think that matters as this is what K1 used as their reasoning:

"The K-1 rule that specifies that the loser of a bout will take the place of that fightÍs winner should the victor be unable to continue his effort in the following tournament round was called into effect."

I guess the reserve fighter would replace only if both the above winner and lose couldn't fight on...?

source of quote:
http://www.k-1usa.net/docs/news/news.asp?news_id=412

What I said was that no reserve fighters go into the final. I didn't say that there were no reserve fighters; just that it is against the rules for them to fight in the final without first fighting in the semifinal. If Chalid had been injured against O'Haire, Pitch would have stepped in.

This is not a new rule.

[Mago]

Well, in 2001 Leko got beaten fair and square by Hoost, but he broke his foot, so Leko enters again (only to be beaten by Hunt) - the reserve fighter didn't get in. In Amsterdam GP Saki only entered the tournement because Tomihira himself was KOed and couldn't fight that night anymore - so no winner of a bracket, and no looser = reserve fighter gets in.

In 2002 Hoost entered the GP again, even though he was TKOed by Sapp (or should I say Kakuda?). He probably shouldnt be allowed by medical reasons, but since Sapp couldn't continue, nor either McDonald or Holm (both injured in the reserve match), I guess they opened an exception (they didn't have any one else to use).

Still, in last GP Aerts got injured and couldnt go on, but Jerome didnt take his place. Feitosa got in instead as the reserve fight winner. Either Jerome couldn't go on due to whatever reasons (as he wasnt KOed or TKOed), or thy changed the rules somewhere and I missed it...

[Big Sleep]

All i have to say about this situation is that JLB won that fight. I was really surprised with the decision, no disrespect to Remy because it's not his fault though. He fought his fight and got very lucky with the decision in my opinion. Jerome looked "strange" in this fight (he left me this impression).. Remy looked bad for that matter.. certeanly it was not the fight i expected from these two. The fight was already bad for itself, but the bad decision made me feel sorry for Jerome even more. I hate to say this because i don't have anything against Remy (he seems like a very cool guy) but it seems like after the win against Akebono he's winning only and exclusively thanks to the judges. I personally think he should have lost all of these decisions: Hoost, Botha 2, Ignashov, The Predator and JLB. I don't think that K-1 can give Jerome what he's "asking" for (to change the decision in his favour), do you think we will see him somewhere else in that case AKA? Do you think he may concentrate more on mma and go to Pride for example?

[CentralKickboxing.Org]

Well, in 2001 Leko got beaten fair and square by Hoost, but he broke his foot, so Leko enters again (only to be beaten by Hunt) - the reserve fighter didn't get in. In Amsterdam GP Saki only entered the tournement because Tomihira himself was KOed and couldn't fight that night anymore - so no winner of a bracket, and no looser = reserve fighter gets in.

In 2002 Hoost entered the GP again, even though he was TKOed by Sapp (or should I say Kakuda?). He probably shouldnt be allowed by medical reasons, but since Sapp couldn't continue, nor either McDonald or Holm (both injured in the reserve match), I guess they opened an exception (they didn't have any one else to use).

Still, in last GP Aerts got injured and couldnt go on, but Jerome didnt take his place. Feitosa got in instead as the reserve fight winner. Either Jerome couldn't go on due to whatever reasons (as he wasnt KOed or TKOed), or thy changed the rules somewhere and I missed it...

Can't comment on 2001. I don't think they had the reserve system ironed out at that point. From 2002, it has been pretty clear.
Hoost in 2002 wasn't an exception. He was 3rd in line behind Sapp and Holm to advance.

In 2005, Jerome was 4th in line behind Aerts, Feitosa, and Hari. He was healthy enough to continue but so was Feitosa who had won his fight that night.

[HolyRamenEmpire]

What I said was that no reserve fighters go into the final. I didn't say that there were no reserve fighters; just that it is against the rules for them to fight in the final without first fighting in the semifinal. If Chalid had been injured against O'Haire, Pitch would have stepped in.

This is not a new rule.

OK. Thx :)

I'd just point out a minor matter of expression (but I understood your explanation of rule). You say reserve fighters can't go to the finals without first fighting a semifinal bout. But you also say they CAN go to the finals if the semi-final loser to the guy who got injured is also injured. Thus, the reserve fighter CAN go to the finals without fighting a semifinal bout, according to what you wrote.

Cheers.

[CentralKickboxing.Org]

Actually no. A reserve fighter can NEVER advance to a final without fighting in the semi. If both the semi winner and semi loser cannot advance, the lone finalist will be awarded the tournament by default.

In 2003, they had a rule (not anymore) that required the injured semi winner to walk to the ring, wait for the opening bell and throw in the towel. I wonder sometimes what is going one in K-1 board meetings.

[HolyRamenEmpire]

Actually no. A reserve fighter can NEVER advance to a final without fighting in the semi. If both the semi winner and semi loser cannot advance, the lone finalist will be awarded the tournament by default.

In 2003, they had a rule (not anymore) that required the injured semi winner to walk to the ring, wait for the opening bell and throw in the towel. I wonder sometimes what is going one in K-1 board meetings.

Oops, sorry, I misread or, misremembered. I mistakenly thought Die Faust fought O'Haire in the semi-finals. Bad memory. Thx for the input. Man, you're on top of your subject. I wonder what AKA has to say to your inputs.

I guess they shouldn't bring up those "other alleged controversies" in arguing this case.

[AKA]

AKA has to stfu until now....
No more communication around JLB until....

[ArtOfWar]

BTW, sorry to detract from the topic, but this thread is one of the best discussions I've seen. All you guys deserve props to express your opinions without trashing people with different opinions or bashing fighters; very mature and superb points brought on from both sides.

Back on topic, I think Remy edged the 1st round. As HRE mentioned, a lot of kicks were landing on the arm and he obviously wanted aggravate JLB's past injury. But several kicks did seem to land on the body. I'm also under the assumption that kicks are valued more than punches. The second round was more or less even but I think JLB edged the 3rd round.

Incidentally, I dont buy the aggressiveness bit. When you stand against a fighter who is bigger and stronger than you, you risk the chance to get KTFOed. Even the best have suffered this (Hoost vs Sapp). Remy kept creating distance between him and JLB and utilizing the best weapon in his arsenal, his kicks. And he was not fighting Kakolai style either; landing a kick, falling down so that his opponent cant get him. He was fighting Mirko against Sapp style more or less.

My personal opinion is that the fight should have been a draw but I'll forgive a decision for either fighter; it was a GOOD match.

AKA, JLB leaving K-1 would of course generate a lot of outrage because for most of us JLB, Hoost, Aerts and Hug are inseperable from K-1, they are what made K-1 what it is. But it is important for JLB to be satisfied with what he is doing also. If there have been many injustices, I think JLB will be happier elsewhere. And he WILL draw his fans there with him for sure.

[heckyl]

One question beyond this match is, what would have happened if JLB fought on in boxing? JLB seem to gass out after 3rds at best. Even taking in consideration the kicks that land on his arms, he seem to gass too quick for boxing. What's the problem? Could he handle the long boxing rds against a tough opponent?


i dont think its one bit fair to compare him in boxing to him in K-1. K-1 is a different style under different rules. he doesnt have to pace himself in this environment. he only has to fight for 9 minutes , and thats what makes JLB, JLB. he can go full out for those 9 minutes attacking. in a 10 round boxing fight, fighters have to pace themselves, thus making it look like boxers have major cardio that other fighters couldnt handle. its just the fighting style. if i knew i was only going 3x3 against a smaller dude, i would attack and attack and attack. use all of that gas. you dont need the whole night to fight.

[Lord Gaul]

I personally don't think it is fair to simply award the win to Jerome. I feel the fight was close enough to marit a win for either guy and it probably should have gone another guy. But in no way should one or the other be awarded the win if not merited by the judges. I think that LeBanner has a case, but it should be a no contest or a draw. I feel that either of those outcomes would be fair. Also the winners money should be awarded to both guys. I am not taking sides because I love Jerome and I love Remy. But if anything is going to be overturned in this fight it should be to a draw are a no contest.

[heckyl]

well yeah definetly a NC. you cant just overturn the judges decision and make it a win for jerome and not expect remy to raise hell. when the judges are drunk, a NC is the best way to deal with it.

[AKA]

well yeah definetly a NC. you cant just overturn the judges decision and make it a win for jerome and not expect remy to raise hell. when the judges are drunk, a NC is the best way to deal with it.
Hahahah awesome!!!!

[ANdYX]

Im a fan of both, but this was Jeromes fight. Pushing the action, and he was landing some shots, sure Remy threw alot of kicks, but as you guys say they mostly hit the arm. I sure feel it was because of the fight was at Remys home, and that's wrong..and I think Remy should know how it feels, it almost happened in Japan with Musashi.

[( o Y o )]

This is not the first time a result has been changed.

Two that come to mind are JLB vs Bernardo and while JLB said in the ring he had lost, he had jst 30 seconds earlier been KTFO so it is not unreasonable for him to have questioned the result later on as technically the KO, while in the natural flow of a flurry, happened just after the bell.

The other I have been told by more than one official was the Carter Williams vs Petr fight from...I think 2004. This is not reflected on either ones record for some reason.

There is an investigation going into the result of this current fight right now. We should know the result of it in the next few days. I think JLB is well within his rights to ask for it to be reviewed, but at the same time I think he should live with whatever the final result is. Remy really cannot complain if the JD is revised as he has had far more than his share of close ones go his way in the past, and he was also well within his right to formally question the JD for Mo when they fought....he did not. Considering the amount of people who thinks each just edged it, I think a draw would end up as the best result.

[CentralKickboxing.Org]

I find it highly doubtful that the K-1 can reverse the decision. The event took place in Amsterdam, which means that if Tanikawa even tried, Remy would take the ruling to a Dutch court.

The win-win situation is for Remy to keep the win and for Jerome to get his winning bonus. It his patriotic duty to pay as much tax to the French government as possible. LOL.

[( o Y o )]

The event took place in Amsterdam, which means that if Tanikawa even tried, Remy would take the ruling to a Dutch court.

And then find himself out of the GP and looking to fight MMA in PRIDE. I think as K-1 just showed Sapp.....it is almost impossible to play hardball with them.

[( o Y o )]

I think what we are really looking at here is the after-effects of K-1s shitty judging and reffing at the 2003 and 3004 GPs. Now they are left with a stable of fighters who no longer have faith in either.

[CentralKickboxing.Org]

And then find himself out of the GP and looking to fight MMA in PRIDE. I think as K-1 just showed Sapp.....it is almost impossible to play hardball with them.

I wouldn't call the court a game of hardball. Arbitration is a normal part of settling disputes. I'm surprise that Royce didn't settle the Yosida affair in such a way. He had a contract for a "no ref stop" match that he lost by referee stoppage. He could have easily walked in front of the judge and dropped those papers on the desk. Pride would have had the task of explaining why they didn't honor the agreement.

There is something pretty smug about the K-1 though. Last year when they violated Botha's medical suspension, that was pretty arrogant. Then when the NSAC responded, they abandoned Botha as if it were his fault.

I met Remy's lawyers in 2004. It would be nothing for them to make a phone call and say, "K-1, this is not going to work. There were no fouls. You have no case, but if you try to overturn the decision, we will have a case. Have a pleasant day."

[( o Y o )]

I met Remy's lawyers in 2004. It would be nothing for them to make a phone call and say, "K-1, this is not going to work. There were no fouls. You have no case, but if you try to overturn the decision, we will have a case. Have a pleasant day."

Maybe no fouls, but if K-1 can show under their rules that Remy did not actually win, and the the judges did not enforce their rules correctly (and remember Rutz is supposedly one of those that agrees), they are well within their rights to correct it. A score of 21-30 by one judge would make this a shoe-in.

And I think Remy taking it to court would be seen by K-1 as a direct attack on them. Leko did far less to be kicked out for several years. K-1 do not need to resign Remy, and may decide they no longer want him if he starts taking matters to that level. Remy on the other hand, if he wants to keep up his current lifestyle, probably does need K-1 though.

[Cracked_Knuckle]

Saw the fight and I would have given the edge to Lebanner. An extra round would have been best. Or better yet, a return to 5 round superfights as we rarely had problems like this then.

[Dado]

Maybe no fouls, but if K-1 can show under their rules that Remy did not actually win, and the the judges did not enforce their rules correctly (and remember Rutz is supposedly one of those that agrees), they are well within their rights to correct it. A score of 21-30 by one judge would make this a shoe-in.

Why do the fighters have to be blamed for judging incompetence?

I think it stupid for the decision to be reversed. Everyone gets their share of close losses and they dont whine and complain about it, and not many people threaten to leave the organisation.

This is getting blown WAY out of proportion.

[( o Y o )]

Why do the fighters have to be blamed for judging incompetence?

They are not blamed, but they shouldn't have to suffer for it either. IF the error was in the judging (the topic of the investigation) there should be something done about it though....as there was after Buakaw vs Masato.


Everyone gets their share of close losses and they dont whine and complain about it, and not many people threaten to leave the organisation.

I think you would be surprised just how many do complain about it.....after all, for us it is a hobby, for the fighters it is their livelihoods. If at work another team member was paid a bonus for work you did, I doubt you would sit by and say nothing. Hoost had an awful lot to say in 2004.....and he finally stopped GP's too.

[HolyRamenEmpire]

i dont think its one bit fair to compare him in boxing to him in K-1. K-1 is a different style under different rules. he doesnt have to pace himself in this environment. he only has to fight for 9 minutes , and thats what makes JLB, JLB. he can go full out for those 9 minutes attacking. in a 10 round boxing fight, fighters have to pace themselves, thus making it look like boxers have major cardio that other fighters couldnt handle. its just the fighting style. if i knew i was only going 3x3 against a smaller dude, i would attack and attack and attack. use all of that gas. you dont need the whole night to fight.

Hmm. Even in boxing, you'd fight differently if you fought a 4 rd fight instead of 10rd. Or in mma, when you fight 3 rd instead of 5. Much is about preparation and fighter type. I understand JLB is training just for 3rds. But he's not that active for 3rds. I wouldn't compare his activity level as being too above that of an active boxer. Again, I understand JLB is not training to fight longer. But isn't that one major factor that has prevented him from winning the GP (besides the refing problem)? And what if he did train to fight 10 rds? Would he fit in well? Pacing isn't everything. Your stamina, your body type matters considerably. And my question is about JLB's body type. I love JLBs fighting style, but he sometimes gasses too early. Even after 1 rd. And JLB mentioned about his diet. I don't know what's the cause of his stamina problem... And as some proposed, 5rds for a superfight would be nice. Would doing 5 rds involve JLB to throw less punches than in the 3rd fight with Remy? He should be able to fight 3 or 5 rds with a similar intensity. That's what training is for. Also, a fighter needs to be ready to fight the extra 4th rd, in case the 3rds isn't enough.

Again, I thought JLB edged the fight. I was cheering for him. But I'd have wished for a more decisive ending. And BTW, Remy isn't that small or smaller of a dude, lol.

---For oyo:

Just to get the score question straight, I didn't hear 21-29 or whatever rediculous score like that... Maybe something was mis-read... or whatever but K1 posted the scoring for the JLB vs RB as:

28-29... 28-30... 30-30

---Etc:

Whatever the result,
I look forward to JLBs fights...
Really unfortunate I won't see him fight in another K1 GP...

[HolyRamenEmpire]

I just actually thought about this scoring... 28-30 for Remy? Err...

So much focus on this bout... I'm already looking forward to JLB's next fight...

Who could be next in line?

I want to see:

JLB vs Iggy...
JLB vs Schilt...
(JLB vs CHMan...)
JLB vs Sefo...
(JLB vs Manhoef... just for fun)
(JLB vs Mo... just for fun)
JLB vs McDonald...
JLB vs Botha...
JLB vs Feitosa or Ruslan Karaev...
maybe JLB vs Aerts...

[( o Y o )]

Just to get the score question straight, I didn't hear 21-29 or whatever rediculous score like that... Maybe something was mis-read... or whatever but K1 posted the scoring for the JLB vs RB as:

28-29... 28-30... 30-30


So even the ring announcer had no idea what was going on with that fight then ;-)

[AKA]

I was ring side the results was 30-27, 30-30 and 29-28.....

[alexey]

I was ring side the results was 30-27, 30-30 and 29-28.....

Fight was similar to fight Aerts - LeBanner. It was fair to appoint an extra round. Such fights in general are better for spending to 5 roundes.
On results of three roundes Jerome too has not won

[HolyRamenEmpire]

On TV, I think I heard:
29-30, 30-30, 28-29

So far,
for the firs score
we have the following "versions":

21-30
27-30
28-30
29-30

[HolyRamenEmpire]

I think the 2nd judge was fairest.
30-30.
They should have gone to an extra rd.

[alexey]

I just actually thought about this scoring... 28-30 for Remy? Err...

So much focus on this bout... I'm already looking forward to JLB's next fight...

Who could be next in line?

I want to see:

JLB vs Iggy...
JLB vs Schilt...
(JLB vs CHMan...)
JLB vs Sefo...
(JLB vs Manhoef... just for fun)
(JLB vs Mo... just for fun)
JLB vs McDonald...
JLB vs Botha...
JLB vs Feitosa or Ruslan Karaev...
maybe JLB vs Aerts...

JLB vs Hong Man Choi - good Final Elimination fight)))

[( o Y o )]

30-27

No matter which fighter everyone feels won the fight, I do not believe anyone could make a case that either Remy or LeBanner won ALL three rounds.

[CentralKickboxing.Org]

Maybe no fouls, but if K-1 can show under their rules that Remy did not actually win, and the the judges did not enforce their rules correctly (and remember Rutz is supposedly one of those that agrees), they are well within their rights to correct it. A score of 21-30 by one judge would make this a shoe-in.

And I think Remy taking it to court would be seen by K-1 as a direct attack on them. Leko did far less to be kicked out for several years. K-1 do not need to resign Remy, and may decide they no longer want him if he starts taking matters to that level. Remy on the other hand, if he wants to keep up his current lifestyle, probably does need K-1 though.

Sounds like K-1 needs a fighters union. The management side feels they can force Sapp to fight without the proper paperwork. They can reverse a decision regardless of the rights of the original winner. If the winner tries to defend his rights in the agreed higher court, he will face consequences like Leko.

I think Ishii needs to look at 2003 and reflect on the coming down to earth the last time he thought he was above the law.

[Lone Wolf]

I think what we are really looking at here is the after-effects of K-1s shitty judging and reffing at the 2003 and 3004 GPs. Now they are left with a stable of fighters who no longer have faith in either.

Yeah, the 3004 GP really had shitty judging...I think they should stop admitting androids as judges, they seem to get their wires short-circuited pretty easy.
And this whole GP on Saturn thing is really not working out...they should return it to Earth. =P

Sorry...i`m a sci-fi buff and I just couldn`t help it...it sounded so funny =P ;)

[( o Y o )]

I seriously need to start proofing what I post :-0 lol

[( o Y o )]

I think Ishii needs to look at 2003 and reflect on the coming down to earth the last time he thought he was above the law.


Perhaps part of the issue is he has yet to have time to reflect.....

[Mago]

Well, I remember Ignashov's first MMA fight with the japanese wrestler (Nakamura? Dont quite remember his name) - when he hit him with the HUGE knee to the head, the guy droped like a rock to his side, I thought he might have broken his face, and the referee instantly jumps foward to prevent him from being soccer-kicked and stomped to death (which Ignashov obviously wouldn't do though, not everyone is Wanderlei Silva). I thought it was a very legit judging and just because the guy could stand up short after dont mean he would in fact get up at all or stay conscious if the referee wouldn't protect him on his fall. Still he complained and K1 went back on the result and either gave it to him or declared a no contest.

The point is, if they can go back on such a simple ring decision that makes every sense, and rob Alexey his clear win, then I think they need some kind of limit to this, because yes they are the organization, it's their show, BUT unless something illegal happens, unless there's a clear fault by someone, they NEED to respect the professionals they assign with the responsability of applying the rules they created and wants to be followed (judges and referees). Only in extreme cases they should be able to question their own professionals...

[Dado]

That was a good call, Nakamura had a broken bone and orbital bone and it would have been stupid for him to keep fighting. It was a very needless way to rob Ignashov of his decision.

Which also makes me apply it to the Remy/JLB situation, if its not Remy's fault that the judges gave it to him (well he did impress them!), so why should he get to lose the fight even after its finished and he was given a decision fair and square by the judges?

Im against reversing decisions because it could start a trend.

[AKA]

(well he did impress them!),
Im against reversing decisions because it could start a trend.
(he did impress only dutch judge, nobody in audience gave him the victory...)I'm against JLB leaving K1.....

[sparkles]

You know I was afraid for this before the fight and I wanted to make a post about it. Same thing for Sapp vs Hoost, I was afraid Sapp have would been screwed because everything was designed for Hoost to win or everybody wanted it that way (perfect scenario).
The decision on Remy vs Jerome was simply bad. How stupid are they to put THREE DUTCH people as judges in the ring. We have seen that stuff in boxing as well with biased judges from teh same country as the fighter, with three judges like that you simply cause a decision like that even before the fight started. Is K-1 badly managed?

I also didn't get why Remy entered first and secondly JLB. Remy is the 2 time champ and there's no way he won that (max a draw).

[sparkles]

btw Decisions like this kill the sport.