K-1 Chronicle of fishy Decisions.

[El Presidente]

Let's discuss some of the odd judgings that have been made in K-1. I havent seen a few of these fights yet I list them only because Ive heard at least some discussion regarding the decision. Going to focus more on where favorite fighters are involved. Add any that I may have left out. Dont attack me if Ive listed something in error or which you strongly feel shouldnt be here. Im just trying to get some discussion going.

Andy Hug vs Satake (Karate World Cup 93).
- pre-K1 days. It was around before K-1 came into existence. Andy owning Satake for the whole fight only to lose on tile-breaking. Andy had left Kyokushin because of this sort of thing.

Andy Hug vs Ernesto Hoost (1996 GP)
- Ernesto feels that he won this fight which prevented him from facing Bernardo in finals (where he wouldve obviously taken him out with low kicks). Satake was out. Musashi was too inexperienced... was Andy the judges favorite at this point?

Satake vs Feitosa (1998)
- Ive heard many people say that Feitosa was robbed here. Satake only won 1 of the 5 rounds. I think this was before Musashi was being built up.

Satake vs Musashi II (1999)
- The loss that made Satake leave K-1 for good. I believe Satake had even scored a down against Musashi and dominated him the whole fight. Not sure about their first fight where it ended as Draw.

Abidi vs Great Kusatsu
- Split Decision win for Abidi. Was the fight really that close?

Aerts vs Mirko
- Mirko won though many said he shouldnt have.

Bernardo vs van Dams (2001)
- Though Im a Bernardo fan I feel that Mike lost this one flat out. Van Dams mauled him with leg kicks. Went to an Extra round where Mike won unconvincingly.

Pettas vs Musashi (2001 Japan GP)
- Uneccesary extra round?

Hoost vs Skelton (2001?)
- Havent seen this fight but Ive heard people say that the decision wasnt a good call. Hoost won a split-decision I think.

Feitosa vs Musashi (2002)
- Draw. Though I feel that Feitosa edged Musashi in this one as he was more active and his attacks connected more than Musashi's useless flurries. Maybe Musashi just makes more noise when he attacks. Maybe that counts for something...

Masato vs Zambidis (2003)
- Havent seen this but there was some discussion on the result and the "knockdown" that happened.

Hoost vs Schilt (2003)
- Draw. Though everyone says that Schilt won. What happened?

Aerts vs Ignashov (2003 GP)
- Did it have to go an extra round?

Kraus vs Narungtungalag (2004)
- Havent seen this. But Kraus was dropped. Went to extension where he won? Was the extension necessary

Ludwig vs Diender (2004)
- Kamatari mentioned this. I understand that Ludwig was dropped... but how did he end up winning the fight? Havent seen this fight either to make an opinion. Those who have seen it comment on the outcome.

Tomihira vs Kelly Leo (2004)
- Tomihira lost even though he was dominating. Hmmm?

Kaoklai vs Ignashov (2004)
- Was the extra round worth neccesary?

Kaoklai vs Bernardo (2004)
- Draw? Or was Bernardo Robbed? How much pull did K-1 have in this event?

Musashi vs Sefo (2004 GP)
Bonjaski vs Hoost (2004 GP)
Musashi vs Kaoklai (2004 GP)
Bonjaski vs Botha (2004 GP)
Musashi vs Bonjaski (2004 GP)
- One big package of questionable decisions and extra rounds...

[Missy]

If I could deal with my fighter since those are freshest - vs Aerts, no extra round needed and I also think Musashi beat Aerts, against Kaoklai, I saw this after everyone said how bad he got whupped, well no not quite, it was closer than many on the forums called, possibly because they love MT so much they WANT to see a Thai win it all but that's another topic. He still lost though.

[Kamatari]

Masato vs Zambidis (2003)
- Havent seen this but there was some discussion on the result and the "knockdown" that happened.
Thought this was actually a good decision, first of it was SPLIT so anyone complaining should realize they're bitching about an incredibly close fight. Masato won the first round 10-8, could make a case for a 10-10 round for the second or 10-9 Zambidis and the last round was 10-9 Zambidis IMO. Dould have gone to either fighter with Masato having the edge due to the down or an extended round with no complaints.

Kraus vs Narungtungalag (2004)
- Havent seen this. But Kraus was dropped. Went to extension where he won? Was the extension necessary
You either reward Kraus' workrate or Jadamba for scoring a down. Close fight, I'm just used to seeing the down making a difference by now but Kraus is the more marketable fighter and you could clearly make a case for him as his workrate remained consistent and he made the best out of it in the extension. However, most people seem to think Narantungalag should've won.

Ludwig vs Diender (2004)
- Kamatari mentioned this. I understand that Ludwig was dropped... but how did he end up winning the fight? Havent seen this fight either to make an opinion. Those who have seen it comment on the outcome.
In the first thirty seconds one of the weirdest downs in recent memory occurs as Diender hits a right straight and Ludwig is dropped but he managed to not hit the canvas as he bounced off the (lowest) ropes. And even though Ludwig did slightly better the remainder of this relatively close fight, a down is a down.

[Paul T]

Let's discuss some of the odd judgings that have been made in K-1. I havent seen a few of these fights yet I list them only because Ive heard at least some discussion regarding the decision. Going to focus more on where favorite fighters are involved. Add any that I may have left out. Dont attack me if Ive listed something in error or which you strongly feel shouldnt be here. Im just trying to get some discussion going.

Andy Hug vs Satake (Karate World Cup 93).
- pre-K1 days. It was around before K-1 came into existence. Andy owning Satake for the whole fight only to lose on tile-breaking. Andy had left Kyokushin because of this sort of thing.


I have seen this fight, but it has been a while. Have you seen it?
I will have to re-watch it/ but I do not remember Andy totally
owning Satake. In 1992 Andy had clearly defeated Satake, so
I suppose this was a grudge/re-match. Sometimes, it seems
the Japanese will keep calling for “1 more round” so that it
can be decided on the mats (or in the ring). This can happen
in Kyokushin, SeidoKaiKan, Shidokan, etc and obviously K-1.

Maybe there is a hope that one person will get KOed in the
extra rounds so that they do not have to make a real Decision.
I suppose there is some logic to this, but it can be so extreme
(i.e. the 5th round for Musashi and Bonjsaky). It would be
interesting - if say in boxing they adopted this and added a
13th round, 14th and possibly a 15th round to a championship
title fight. I doubt that most boxers would approve. . . .

Anyway, approve or disapprove, going to the tiles used to be
the accepted convention for deciding a tie in knockdown karate.
Satake won the tamashiwari (breaking) part of the contest. I
do not recall if they went to the scales on this one or not as well.

I will re-watch this fight in the near future and see what I think

[Amron]

Crocop vs Bonjasky
Fight got stopped by the Ref with Bonjasky clearly not being in trouble. after the stop Remy looks at the ref and is like WTF??

Bonjasky vs Filho 2004
Bonjasky got an 8count, i still dont know why...

Filho vs Ignashov 2001
It should have been a draw IMO (at least)

[Paul T]

Although not a completely across the board comparison,
there are some pretty horrendous decisions in Boxing too.
food for thought . . . . .
In boxing, they also use the compubox, which is a record
of how many hits connect for each round. Young dudes
with video game cat-like reflexes with their thumbs on the
buttons will let you know e.g., 60 out of 100 punches landed
in that round. They do not record power of the punches though.

Ironically, the old silver–haired judges do not use the compu
box numbers when rendering their subjective score cards.
Now obviously, there are other things to consider, such as: ring
generalship, aggression, power of strikes, and yes even defense.
BUT you would think the punch stats would help in decisions.

Maybe we need compukickbox for the K-1 competitions. I think
it would have some in handy in round 4 of Bonjasky vrs Musashi
if used to help with the scoring . . . .

[El Presidente]

I have seen this fight, but it has been a while. Have you seen it?
I will have to re-watch it/ but I do not remember Andy totally
owning Satake. In 1992 Andy had clearly defeated Satake, so
I suppose this was a grudge/re-match. Sometimes, it seems
the Japanese will keep calling for “1 more round” so that it
can be decided on the mats (or in the ring). This can happen
in Kyokushin, SeidoKaiKan, Shidokan, etc and obviously K-1.

Maybe there is a hope that one person will get KOed in the
extra rounds so that they do not have to make a real Decision.
I suppose there is some logic to this, but it can be so extreme
(i.e. the 5th round for Musashi and Bonjsaky). It would be
interesting - if say in boxing they adopted this and added a
13th round, 14th and possibly a 15th round to a championship
title fight. I doubt that most boxers would approve. . . .

Anyway, approve or disapprove, going to the tiles used to be
the accepted convention for deciding a tie in knockdown karate.
Satake won the tamashiwari (breaking) part of the contest. I
do not recall if they went to the scales on this one or not as well.

I will re-watch this fight in the near future and see what I think

In the writeup of this one - Hug apparently dropped Satake with an Axe Kick to the face.

[Mago]

Andy Hug vs Ernesto Hoost (1996 GP)
- Ernesto feels that he won this fight which prevented him from facing Bernardo in finals (where he wouldve obviously taken him out with low kicks). Satake was out. Musashi was too inexperienced... was Andy the judges favorite at this point?

When watching this fight I was very excited because I already knew Hug had won this and Hoost was an incredible guy also, I knew it would be a great war - and it sure was. I haven't seen this in a while, so I maybe a little off, but if a guy thinks with a cool head, I think most would give it to Hoost - his shots doesn't seem to do any effect JUST because Hug was completely made of iron and had unbellievable resistance to pain, because he connected with huge lw kicks and a lot of knees, coldly picking attacks while Hug was trying to get inside. But we have to consider the fact that by heart and tradition, hug was a karate warrior; for him a fighter had to give it ALL, everytime, and that's just what he did in this fight. He was all heart, coming ahead wihtout ever stepping back, even when hit by huge bombs; he just didn't mind, and would keep on trying and hitting with his own blows. Maybe hit by hit, Hoost got the better of the fight by landing more clean techniques and having better defense, specially knees and low kicks, but I think this was one of those cases when the tradition was still very strong, and I personally believe Hug impressed everybody with his warrior heart and never give up atitude agaisnt a guy more taller than him and more experienced. Funny, but I thought that, by this logic, Hug should have won on the regular 3 rounds, because that's where he showed much of his courage and was still fresh to discuss blow by blow with Hoost, who was more conservative and couldn't do much because Andy was all over him. Then the first extre round came and Andy was very tired, but by a miracle still managed to overshadow Hoost's technical points with effort and commitment, but now he was landing considerably less cleanly than before. This is where the impressed judges should have stopped and finally awarded him the victory, but they wanted to see another round and now both were very tired and little was done. So by giving him the vistory only then was a little anti-climax...

PS: Don't get mistaked to think that Hug won just for tradition favouritism though: even though Hoost scored more, Hug was landing a lot too, trying a lot of boxing combos and got an Axe kick, landed a hihg kick and even rocked hoost in the 3rd or 4th round.

Aerts vs Ignashov (2003 GP)
- Did it have to go an extra round?

No I don't think it should have. It was a technical fight with neither doing that much of work done (Ignashov for the stated reasons, and Peter probably thinking of later fights). Still, Peter clearly outpointed Ignashov with kicks and overall agressiveness, while Ignashov sticked to jabbing and keeping his distance. They asked for the extra round and it was more of the same. In the end, it just seemed like they wanted Ignashov to wake up and do something, and clearly used the extra round for that effect. It just made Peter go through more of the same and tire himself more...

Tomihira vs Kelly Leo (2004)
- Tomihira lost even though he was dominating. Hmmm?

This was freaking ridiculous. The guy couldn't barely stand after this fight, was in difficulties thourhgout the fight and Tomihira outpointed him by a mile. Still they gave the home guy the win and raised booos even from the american crowd. Tomihira was pissed, and Leo advanced completely tired and beaten just to be brutally abused by MacDonald (getting Koed within seconds by a high kick).

Kaoklai vs Ignashov (2004)

I think much was talked about this fight but it was closer than many stated IMO. Koaklai was circling a lot, and you can clearly sense Ignashov as being a sniper, trying to spare himself for a clear shot that would end it (but Kaoklai just wouldn't sit still), as we know he was injured and ill. This as similar to the Aerts case I think, with the judges just don't believing Ignashov was having such a poor performance and gave him another chance to try that KO strike. It didn't came though.

[Paul T]

In the writeup of this one - Hug apparently dropped Satake with an Axe Kick to the face.

Ah yes. my memory has been refreshed.
Just finished watching the tape.
100% fishy judging. 1993 SeidoKaikan World Cup.

Round 1 Andy does drop Satake, but no Wazari (half point) awarded.
Judges call draw at the end of the round, and fight continues.

Round 2 sees A LOT of rough-housing from Sataki, but little
effective technique. Andy lands more, and does not reataliate
to the Rabbit punches, forearms in the throaht, etc he is receiving.
tied up at end of round 2 according to judges

Round 3 and I think 4 are pretty similar and at one point
Andy does like a Judo throw to get Sataki off him. Crowd
roars. Andy Landing more and more effective technique.

It is hard to see the judges flags, but it looks like most rounds
Andy is getting 2 judges voting for him, and a draw or a vote
for Sataki, and of course a draw from Ishi in the middle.
In knockdown, need majority or in this case 3 out of 5.

Anyway, they put on the gloves, and next two rounds are
essentially K-1 rules. in the first 10 seconds of putting on the
gloves, Andy Drills Sataki with a left (cross as he is in
SouthPaw stance) Very nice.

Anyway, 2 rounds of glove fighting and the judges still can
not see Andy is winning. In my mind, if it had been scored
as 10/9 rounds, it would have been ben like 60 to 54 for Andy.

So the weight is pretty similar, they go to breaking tiles and
Sataki gets it. but Andy was the better man.

Of interest to the historians and trivia seekers.

Also in the tournament . . . . .

PAtrick Smith versus Sataki
Kakuda versus Michael Thompson
Very good Thai fighter destroying a TKD dude.
Sam Greko also putting on a clinic (and getting robbed)
and Adam Watt versus Sataki.
Gerard Geurdo(sp?) also fought (he was in UFC 1) very very dirty.

Anyway. I correct myself. Fishy Decisions.

[( o Y o )]

Thought this was actually a good decision, first of it was SPLIT so anyone complaining should realize they're bitching about an incredibly close fight. Masato won the first round 10-8, could make a case for a 10-10 round for the second or 10-9 Zambidis and the last round was 10-9 Zambidis IMO. Dould have gone to either fighter with Masato having the edge due to the down or an extended round with no complaints.

My only complaint with that call was the down being bogus. I do not see how someone gets hit, walks back wiping something off his foot, then getting jumped on = a down. He got up and did not favour any part of his body like he had been hurt, and fought well landing the more solid shots after it. If you take away the down, then Masato lost.

[Missy]

Crocop vs Bonjasky
Fight got stopped by the Ref with Bonjasky clearly not being in trouble. after the stop Remy looks at the ref and is like WTF??


Agree, although Crocop was throwing a lot not much was landing, I would have given Bonjasky more time before stepping in.

[killlah]

Musashi - Bonjasky (GP 2004 final)
After 3rd round it looks like Musashi won (yes, he got 8count in first, but in whole 3 rounds was better than Remy)
After 1st extra was Remy winner in my eyes and wasn't necessary another extra

[( o Y o )]

Chris Chrisopoulides vs. Musashi was another clear home town rip off.

Against Musashi this time though.....

[El Presidente]

Carter Williams vs Dewey Cooper

Quite a lot of discussion on that one. Though I havent seen it for myself.

[-=[DM]=-]

I agree with all the above mention fights.

Kelly Leo vs Tatsufumi Tomihira
K-1 - Battle at the Bellagio 2

Leo wins a very undeserved decision. Tomihira pushes the entire fight, slips and gets a 8 cound and loses the fight.

Larry Lindwall vs Michael McDonald
K-1 Scandinavia 2004

Michael McDonald controls the entire fight, even knocking down Lindwall. The knockdown is ruled a slip even though Lindwall is very woobly on his feet after. The fight is ruled a draw.

I think McDonald generally often loses on decision even though he either won the fight or the fight deserve one extra round.

[Missy]

Carter Williams vs Dewey Cooper

Quite a lot of discussion on that one. Though I havent seen it for myself.


I'm glad this thread was started, I've sat here reading going 'oh yeah I remember that fight!'
Carter and Cooper 100% wrong IMO, crowd was booing and so was I.

[-=[DM]=-]

let's not forget bob sapp against kimo. Jesus that break was so blatantly obviously for sapp to recover that it was embarrasing.

[Tommy_Arashikage]

Don't forget Aerts vs. Sefo, either.

[-=[DM]=-]

Don't forget Aerts vs. Sefo, either.
I suppose you mean their 2002 fight. That wasn't a fishy or biased decision, it was very close but not controversial like the above mention fights.

[Tommy_Arashikage]

I just watched the fight the other week and I clearly thought Aerts won.

[( o Y o )]

I`ve been round this Aerts fight several times with people and everyone sees it differently. My take is that...

Aerts has the higher work rate.

Sefo lands the more solid punches.

Aerts gets rocked more than once.

While the criteria for K-1 judging...fuck, it would seem K-1 themselves don`t even know....back then the norm was the: more damage, harder stikes, agressive, moving forward, points landed etc etc

Arguements can and have been made saying Aerts landed more softer hits etc, so I guess this could well fit into the slot of "damned close" rather than a rip off from either side.

[TheDude]

I have now seen the most recent fights a few time, and I feel that some of the decisions were bad(Hoost/Bojansky, the second extra round in Musashi/Bojansky), but a bigger problem is evident: Fan hysteria. Right after and even during the PbPs people were going mad about the decisions. They were all over the boards writing hundreds of messages regarding the subject. The problem is the fact that few of those messages had any real opinions about the event, the rest were just copy-cats, they were writing the shit they had read, and in minutes it seemed like the judges had stabled half of the fighters dead.

Musashi/Sefo was not fishy. The final was not THAT fishy until the extra round. Bojansky, just like Sefo, was just too passive to deserve a W during the 3 rounds.

[Tommy_Arashikage]

I`ve been round this Aerts fight several times with people and everyone sees it differently. My take is that...

Aerts has the higher work rate.

Sefo lands the more solid punches.

Aerts gets rocked more than once.

While the criteria for K-1 judging...fuck, it would seem K-1 themselves don`t even know....back then the norm was the: more damage, harder stikes, agressive, moving forward, points landed etc etc

Arguements can and have been made saying Aerts landed more softer hits etc, so I guess this could well fit into the slot of "damned close" rather than a rip off from either side.

It seemed in your pbp on the show a couple years ago you were clearly on Aerts' side. Have you rewatched it since then?

[( o Y o )]

It seemed in your pbp on the show a couple years ago you were clearly on Aerts' side. Have you rewatched it since then?

About 20 odd times. ;-)

Musashi/Sefo was not fishy. The final was not THAT fishy until the extra round. Bojansky, just like Sefo, was just too passive to deserve a W during the 3 rounds.

I don`t agree. Both Sefo and Remy did more than Musashi, so whatever the reason for the extentions, they were wrong.

Watch the extra round with Sefo and Musashi and count shots that land. Sefo even has more low kicks that round than Musashi. Hell, at the end of the third round when Sefo lands the spinning backfist Tanikawa quite loudly groans into his microphone......

[Tommy_Arashikage]

I never thought there was anything wrong with the decision, but does anyone else think that Greco and Hug from the '98 GP should have gone an extra round? I mean they were dead after three but they were all pretty even in my eyes.