Sengoku VI *Spoilers*

[krikit]

Lightweight GP Series 2008 Semifinal Fights:
Satoru Kitaoka def. Eiji Mitsuoka R1 Heelhook
Kazunori Yokota def. Mizuto Hirota by Decision

Lightweight GP Series 2008 Reserve Fight
Jorge Masvidal def. Seung Hwan Bang by Decision

Middleweight GP Series 2008 Semifinal Fights:
Jorge Santiago def. Siyar Bahadurzada by R1 Heelhook
Kazuhiro Nakamura def. Yuki Sasaki by Decision

Middleweight GP Series 2008 Reserve Fight
Joe Doerksen def. Izuru Takeuchi by R3 TKO

Superfights
King Mo def. Fabio Silva by R3 TKO
Antonio Rogerio Nogueira def. Moise Rimbon by Decision
Sergey Golyaev def. Takanori Gomi

Lightweight GP Series 2008 Final Fight
Eiji Mitsuoka def. Kazunori Yokota by Decision

Middleweight GP Series 2008 Final Fight
Jorge Santiago def. Kazuhiro Nakamura by R3 TKO

[slash]

How the hell did Gomi managed to loose?

[krikit]

Event pretty much ruined by two flat out robberies (Gomi and Bang was robbed), Hirota vs Yokota decision was also rather questionable. Nakamura did his best to put the audience to sleep during his fights but Jorge managed to step in and knock him out in the last round.

Saving moment was King Mo kicking ass.

[Mato]

How the hell did Gomi managed to loose?
By getting screwed by the judges.

[slash]

Why would they screw Gomi.
It makes no sense.

Is this event worth watching?

[Mato]

Why would they screw Gomi.
It makes no sense.

Is this event worth watching?
I have no idea why...i think the judges where either Golayev's relatives or on drugs...i have no other explanation.

As for the event itself...i don't know...i liked Santiago in the tournament and King Mo put on a show...other than that nothing special. Doerksen vs Takeuchi wasn't bad actually and you have to watch the Gomi fight to see for yourself what kind of robbery i'm talking about.

[Kamatari]

Is this event worth watching?
Absolutely not, let this be a warning to all of you - no matter how decent the card looks on paper, Sengoku will never deliver. Even if a fight is decent the decision will render it useless.

[slash]

Absolutely not, let this be a warning to all of you - no matter how decent the card looks on paper, Sengoku will never deliver. Even if a fight is decent the decision will render it useless.

LOL
I'll probably watch King Mo and Gomi, and that's probably it.

[Mato]

I mean...it's kind of frustrating.

Nakamura is very good but he lacks finishing skills. The guy has been in there with the best of the best, to me he's much better than he fights and that's just frustrating to watch. He was even winning the final but what a borefest he put on. FRUSTRATING.

Gomi for sure and possibly other two guys getting screwed (i'm not sure about the others i have to rewatch them). Like Kamatari said...even if those fights weren't that bad...those bad decisions ruin everything.

Yokota...disappointment. The guy fought in both of his fights not to lose, never did he really try to finish his opponent. In my eyes he was avoiding a real fight. I have no simpathy for fighters like him so i was happy when he lost in the final.

And what's worse we now get Kitaoka vs Golayev for the title (i'm guessing). I mean, Kitaoka...for how good of a grappler he is he's so one dimentional...it's sad that he's gonna finish Golayev in under a minute when someone like Gomi "lost" to him by decision. No comment.

At least Misaki vs Santiago should be good...

[chorb]

it was tough watching gomi after the fight. the guy looked crushed emotionally.

[miscmisc]

It's a 10-point deduction-based non-must system. That's what they said in the first PPV, I believe. That basically means it's round-based, but 10-10 is allowed. Scores like 9-8 are possible, too. And when the score is even after the three rounds, they apply some sort of "must" principle to the whole decision, based on, well, something. Under this system, there shouldn't be any draw, if I understand it correctly.

What criteria they are using for that "something" is not at all clear. "Damage"? Technical superiority? "Ring Generalship"? I don't think they have ever explained that to us. So much for the "commission" and "legitimacy" that they are always trumpeting. Just because you don't favor certain fighters doesn't necessarily mean you are legitimate. I don't think they are trying to screw anyone, but they are too unclear about the details.

I don't know what the final scores were, but the only explanation would be "damage" is really the deciding factor in this org. I guess it went like, 9-10, 10-8, 9-10, and based on the "damage," Golyaev FTW.

Disastrous result for the org either way.

[EDIT] It seems that Gomi himself understands the decision that way. "I received clear damage in the second round, and that made the difference though the fight was otherwise even overall, I think."

[chorb]

[EDIT] It seems that Gomi himself understands the decision that way. "I received clear damage in the second round, and that made the difference though the fight was otherwise even overall, I think."

Gomi swung with that lunging left hook that missed (or grazed) Golyaev who ducked and countered with a left that connected, but not seemingly too hard. but that lead Gomi to drop. I thought it was the way he landed, buckling his right knee that lead to the stumbling but seems like he was hurt.
Thanks for the scoop miscmisc.

[Kamatari]

Gomi for sure and possibly other two guys getting screwed (i'm not sure about the others i have to rewatch them). Like Kamatari said...even if those fights weren't that bad...those bad decisions ruin everything.
If you're in a particularly masochistic mood you should rewatch the Bang fight I suppose. It was a terrible decision.

[slash]

Just watched the fight.
I think Gomi's knee buckled, or ankle and that's why he fell down, not because of the punch. So that's not legitimate knockdown in my eyes
But no way Guedyev won the fight, under any "normal" rules.
Even if this is must decision, Gomi had two takedowns, two submission attempts, connected more in stand-up.
Guedyev had 20 seconds of offense in entire fight.

[Souder]

That sucks that Gomi lost. I'm going to have to watch the fight and see for myself.

[EckY]

Gomi clearly should have won, he had takedowns, sub attempts and landed more strikes, he really was turning it on in the 3rd round, looked like Gomi of old there. Golyaev caught him once cleanly in the 2nd but aside from that did nothing apart from defend and backpeddle. WVR fucked themselves here.

Also Pang beat Masvidal, it was closer but Pang definately won that fight imo.

[wvquine]

It's a 10-point deduction-based non-must system. That's what they said in the first PPV, I believe. That basically means it's round-based, but 10-10 is allowed. Scores like 9-8 are possible, too. And when the score is even after the three rounds, they apply some sort of "must" principle to the whole decision, based on, well, something. Under this system, there shouldn't be any draw, if I understand it correctly.

What criteria they are using for that "something" is not at all clear. "Damage"? Technical superiority? "Ring Generalship"? I don't think they have ever explained that to us. So much for the "commission" and "legitimacy" that they are always trumpeting. Just because you don't favor certain fighters doesn't necessarily mean you are legitimate. I don't think they are trying to screw anyone, but they are too unclear about the details.

I don't know what the final scores were, but the only explanation would be "damage" is really the deciding factor in this org. I guess it went like, 9-10, 10-8, 9-10, and based on the "damage," Golyaev FTW.

Disastrous result for the org either way.

[EDIT] It seems that Gomi himself understands the decision that way. "I received clear damage in the second round, and that made the difference though the fight was otherwise even overall, I think."

Thank you for that.

It would be nice if the WVR suits took a look at the absurd decisions which took place at the event yesterday, and finally realize that their judging sysem is broken. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of another major organization (or at least, a group making the attempt to be major...) that has had more questionable, wrong-headed, counter-intuitive, or flat out theft decisions than WVR's Sengoku. Given the short amount of time WVR has been in existence, that is quite an accomplishment.

Some people always make a fuss about whether the judging system judges fights based on totality or on a round-by-round point deduction system, which is rather beside the point. There will always be bad decisions, and there will always be bad judges, no matter what system one uses; however, the hallmark of an effective scoring system will be consistent and intuitive results the vast majority of the time. Both PRIDE/DREAM and the 10-point-must system used in North America provide fine examples of effective scoring systems, in spite of the existence of questionable decisions in both systems.

In an effective scoring system, an average viewer with average knowledge of the techniques used in Mixed Martial Arts competition, should be able to watch a match, hear a judge's decision and intuitively understand why the judge's reached that decision. It is necessary also for the fighters themselves to also be able to quickly and easily understand the scoring system in place! Different criteria lead to different kinds of fight performances, as can easily be seen by comparing fights in the UFC, where positional control is heavily favored, to older pride fights, where aggressive attacks even from bad positions, were favored in scoring.

It is absolutely vital to have a legitimate, intuitive and consistent scoring system in place, if one hopes to have a viable organization. Without one in place, viewers cease to believe that the outcomes are being judged fairly, and begin to suspect collusion or conspiracy, fighter favoritism, gift decisions, punishment decisions -- essentially anything except what actually happened in the match. And the fighters may begin to suspect the same kinds of things, and seek employment elsewhere.

In Sengoku such a legitimate scoring system does not exist currently. In perhaps every single Sengoku event, there has been at least one questionable decision, but the involvement of Gomi makes yesterday's robbery the highest profile incident. What a travesty and embarrassment. Pang's match as well draws attention to the situation. Two thefts in one event, and a questionable decision in every event should be enough for even the most stubborn executive to realize there is a problem.

But then again, I should know by now to never underestimate the stupidity of organizational management, and thus we can probably expect to see several more robberies from Sengoku before the promotion finally calls it a day. Pro-fighters beware.

[Mato]

I'm also surprised by Gomi's reaction this time, i know he's not the type of guy to protest a decision but when it's THAT obvious i mean c'mon. For those who actually understand Japanese, is he an insecure guy? He gives me that impression sometimes.

Hey Kam, i'm now gonna go back and rewatch the Bang fight as well...come back and praise the judges some more for their outstanding job i guess lol.

[Mato]

Well, at first i didn't think much of the decision in the Bang-Masvidal fight and after rewatching it i'm even more convinced. Personally i didn't see any controvery here. I scored the 1st round for Masvidal 10-8, the 2nd was so even 10-10? and the last i gave to Bang 10-9. So 29-28 for Masvidal. You could make an arguement for the 1st being a 10-9 round, but with Masvidal (in my opinion) already winning the round and then the knockdown...i scored it 10-8.

[Kamatari]

Well, at first i didn't think much of the decision in the Bang-Masvidal fight and after rewatching it i'm even more convinced. Personally i didn't see any controvery here. I scored the 1st round for Masvidal 10-8, the 2nd was so even 10-10? and the last i gave to Bang 10-9. So 29-28 for Masvidal. You could make an arguement for the 1st being a 10-9 round, but with Masvidal (in my opinion) already winning the round and then the knockdown...i scored it 10-8.
I thought it was terrible to reward Masvidal for coasting and doing absolutely NOTHING after that knockdown. That just shows how flawed Sengoku's judging system is, not that I understand it.

[Mato]

I thought it was terrible to reward Masvidal for coasting and doing absolutely NOTHING after that knockdown.
In this case i don't agree, Masvidal may have done little after the knockdown but you have to admit that Bang did even less.

As i see it it was a pretty even fight overall but Masvidal had a clean knockdown so that made the difference. On the other hand the Gomi-Golyaev fight wasn't close at all when you look at the whole picture...Golyaev had that knockdown (the only thing he did in the fight) and somehow managed to win a decision...now that's f@cked up. Two very different cases in my opinion.

[Kamatari]

In this case i don't agree, Masvidal may have done little after the knockdown but you have to admit that Bang did even less.

As i see it it was a pretty even fight overall but Masvidal had a clean knockdown so that made the difference. On the other hand the Gomi-Golyaev fight wasn't close at all when you look at the whole picture...Golyaev had that knockdown (the only thing he did in the fight) and somehow managed to win a decision...now that's f@cked up. Two very different cases in my opinion.
How? Why? I just said he did NOTHING so how can Bang do even less in my eyes?

Sure, this fight was closer but that doesn't mean I have to agree with that crap decision. Even die-hard Masvidal fans, well one, agreed that Bang should've won. I have no problem with you seeing it differently, but that first part of your post is something that doesn't sit well with me. It almost felt like he was chasing a shadow because I don't recall anything Masvidal did after the first round.

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

"A long time ago we used to be friends..." :-)

[Mato]

How? Why? I just said he did NOTHING so how can Bang do even less in my eyes?

Sure, this fight was closer but that doesn't mean I have to agree with that crap decision. Even die-hard Masvidal fans, well one, agreed that Bang should've won. I have no problem with you seeing it differently, but that first part of your post is something that doesn't sit well with me. It almost felt like he was chasing a shadow because I don't recall anything Masvidal did after the first round.

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

"A long time ago we used to be friends..." :-)
Ok so we officially disagree on this one :-) but from memory we agree most of the time so no big deal...we can't always see eye to eye ;-)

[miscmisc]

I'm also surprised by Gomi's reaction this time, i know he's not the type of guy to protest a decision but when it's THAT obvious i mean c'mon. For those who actually understand Japanese, is he an insecure guy? He gives me that impression sometimes.

He clearly is.

He also clearly didn't like the decision at all. I can tell from the way he talked about it. But he rarely bitches about things like decisions. That's how he protects himself. He's also a nihilistic type, and doesn't even believe that there is this platonic concept of "winning a fight" somewhere in this world. That guy isn't simple at all, despite his demeanor.

I like him.

And most importantly, he wasn't in a position to be objective about his performance. Like he said, he didn't even remember what was going on in the second round. He was probably rocked hard for real, and very, very embarrassed by that. Bitching about the decision (or giving an impression that he is in an indirect way) while being mightily embarrassed is the last thing to do for a hopelessly Japanese dude like him.

[Mato]

He clearly is.

He also clearly didn't like the decision at all. I can tell from the way he talked about it. But he rarely bitches about things like decisions. That's how he protects himself. He's also a nihilistic type, and doesn't even believe that there is this platonic concept of "winning a fight" somewhere in this world. That guy isn't simple at all, despite his demeanor.

I like him.

And most importantly, he wasn't in a position to be objective about his performance. Like he said, he didn't even remember what was going on in the second round. He was probably rocked hard for real, and very, very embarrassed by that. Bitching about the decision (or giving an impression that he is in an indirect way) while being mightily embarrassed is the last thing to do for a hopelessly Japanese dude like him.
Not understanding Japanese you go by the way someone conducts himself in the ring, impressions, translated interviews, etc. I don't remember him ever bitching about a decision or anything like that so i know it's not in his nature and that's great actually (i like that attitude too)...but if deep inside himself he's not happy with it why would he try to even justify it (see post fight interview)? That's strange.

Now try to imagine someone like Arona in his place, it would be the total opposite lol

[RedHawk]

how did little Nog look and how experienced was his opponent?

I haven't been following as much lately.

[Niclas]

He clearly is.

He also clearly didn't like the decision at all. I can tell from the way he talked about it. But he rarely bitches about things like decisions. That's how he protects himself. He's also a nihilistic type, and doesn't even believe that there is this platonic concept of "winning a fight" somewhere in this world. That guy isn't simple at all, despite his demeanor.

I like him.

And most importantly, he wasn't in a position to be objective about his performance. Like he said, he didn't even remember what was going on in the second round. He was probably rocked hard for real, and very, very embarrassed by that. Bitching about the decision (or giving an impression that he is in an indirect way) while being mightily embarrassed is the last thing to do for a hopelessly Japanese dude like him.

I can relate to this, if I was in that situation I might think that I won in the technical way... but having been rocked like that I would still feel that I was in the worst way during the fight and it would feel wrong to sit there and boast and talk about how robbed I was.

Anyways... I was baffeled by the decision cause I was sure gomi would get it, and I think it showed in Gomi's eyes that he really really didnt like it. (Although if it was that he didnt like the decision or just dissapointed in himself I dunno.)

[miscmisc]

Not understanding Japanese you go by the way someone conducts himself in the ring, impressions, translated interviews, etc. I don't remember him ever bitching about a decision or anything like that so i know it's not in his nature and that's great actually (i like that attitude too)...but if deep inside himself he's not happy with it why would he try to even justify it (see post fight interview)? That's strange.

No, it's not strange at all. He had to somehow convince himself that there was a reason for that decision. He isn't an angel, so if he couldn't find any basis for the decision, he would go nuts inside.

Actually, the fact that he went on about it like that is exactly the evidence that he isn't 100% convinced that he technically lost the fight. Some little nuances might have been lost in translation, but he was simply trying to figure out THE scenario or point of view where you could argue that he legitimately lost that fight. He needed one, for his own sakes.

It's not even something particularly Japanese or Gomi, but something about human psychology, I think.

Somewhere deep down, he probably knows he could've won that fight with different judges or in a different org. And that's where the embarrassment factor comes into it. He was supposed to blast the Russian, and couldn't. He was rocked hard instead. As far as he's concerned, he lost something big in that fight, and that disappointment helped him rationalize the decision.

Talking about the decision like that is actually his small resistance to the fact that it's all up to the judges (and hence you shouldn't leave it to them, as Dana always says). A samurai type (which Gomi isn't, though it's hard to explain why) like Kawajiri wouldn't even go on about it like that.

[Mato]

I see what you're saying miscmisc. One thing is for sure though, the Gomi of 2005 would have destroyed Golyaev. He is the much better wrestler and ground fighter all around and even his stand up isn't inferior. Thinking about it i can actually see the embarassement because even tho i'm never gonna change my mind on that decision there's no way around it, he should have finished him. At first i gave this guy a shot because i'd never see him fight, but after watching the first round i thought it was just a metter of time...i was sure Gomi was gonna finish him but i was wrong.

A guy who nobody heard of before brought in to lose after a two year lay off...that says it all. I guess even Fedor was brought in to lose back in the day in PRIDE but he backed it up by totally dominating. A little bit different.