UFC 88 post fight discussion

[Grant Ellis]

Rashad got one hell of a ko on chuck

[Lord Gaul]

I been saying it all week. Rashad will win. Man if I was only a gambler. I think a fight with him and Griffin would sell. Not like Chuck and Griffin, but it will sell. I am curious if people think that Chuck is done now.

I was wrong about the Hamil upset though. I am happy for Franklin.

[K-1 Extremist]

I wouldn't mind seeing Rich Franklin in K-1. His kickboxing was superb tonight.

[xavion]

Wow, that's KO of the year for sure!

edit: And what was with Rogan acting like a total ass after the Kim / Brown fight? It was pretty clear that Kim won rounds 1 and 3. Brown won round 2 more clearly than Kim won 1 and 3, but that still = a loss using the 10 pt scoring system. Rogan was really unprofessional there (more than usual).

[timmothy84]

Wow, that's KO of the year for sure!

edit: And what was with Rogan acting like a total ass after the Kim / Brown fight? It was pretty clear that Kim won rounds 1 and 3. Brown won round 2 more clearly than Kim won 1 and 3, but that still = a loss using the 10 pt scoring system. Rogan was really unprofessional there (more than usual).

That was dirty of Joe. I thought Kim easily had control of round 1 and 3 too. As for Chuck I am not a fan but I don't think he should retire, he just got caught Clean right on the chin. Chuck never protects his chin, Rampage found the shot so did Rashad tonight. I am no professional fighter but don't you guys think that Chuck always leaves him self open way to much like he did tonight?

[mdhan]

That was one of the most brutal KOs I've ever seen in MMA. It was almost as bad as Tank Abbott's KO of Nelmark. Looks like Rashad completely screwed up whatever the UFC had in mind for the lightheavyweight division. I wonder what's going to happen next.

By the way, what did Rogan say about Kim? I've only watched the Korean broadcast so I couldn't hear his commentary, but I do expect some critical comments because his performance was quite disappointing.

[tiefling]

If Rashad gets a title shot that's the biggest bullshit of the year. Last year he defeated Sean Salmon and Bisping in a split decision, and this year Chuck, now 1-3 in his four latest fights.

[mdhan]

If Rashad gets a title shot that's the biggest bullshit of the year. Last year he defeated Sean Salmon and Bisping in a split decision, and this year Chuck, how's now 1-3 in his four latest fights.

Looks like he will.

Talking about the possibility of a title shot after his stunning performance, Evans said, “I’m a patient man. I’m just enjoying the ride and whatever happens, however long it takes, it takes.”

He didn’t have to be patient for long, however, as UFC president Dana White informed the media at the UFC 88 post-fight press conference that Evans would indeed be tapped to challenge UFC light heavyweight champion Forrest Griffin in the first defense of his title.


http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=7051&zoneid=13

[Brock8]

That was one of the most brutal KOs I've ever seen in MMA. It was almost as bad as Tank Abbott's KO of Nelmark.

Reminds me of Sefo's brutal KO of LeBanner...way way back.

[( o Y o )]

I wouldn't mind seeing Rich Franklin in K-1. His kickboxing was superb tonight.

Hi kickboxing was c class at best. Looks good in MMA, but it is not the same.

[Lord Gaul]

^^+2. Beating a wrestler in kickboxing is no were close to the same.

[Lord Gaul]

If Rashad gets a title shot that's the biggest bullshit of the year. Last year he defeated Sean Salmon and Bisping in a split decision, and this year Chuck, now 1-3 in his four latest fights.
Why bullshit. He is undefeated and he has a win that puts him in contention. The only person who I would put over him is Machida. Other then that I am cool with it for once.

[tiefling]

Why bullshit. He is undefeated and he has a win that puts him in contention. The only person who I would put over him is Machida. Other then that I am cool with it for once.

Undefeated means nothing when you haven't stepped up and faced the top dogs yet, Liddell was definitely a step in that direction but IMO not big enough. There are far more deserving guys.

[krikit]

Being a TUF Champ, undefeated and now coming off a big KO win over Chuck probably makes easiest sell as a ppv main event

I don't really mind either, I think it will be a good fight vs Forrest.

[Ba Bu]

I was very sad that Rousimar Palhares lost. Although, most people here were disputing the decision. One thing was certain; 30-27 was absolute bullshit. It was a split decision if that. I know there are a lot of Dan Henderson fans, but Toquinho is awesome and he'll be a wrecking machine in the sport for a long time.

[Titan]

I was very sad that Rousimar Palhares lost. Although, most people here were disputing the decision. One thing was certain; 30-27 was absolute bullshit. It was a split decision if that. I know there are a lot of Dan Henderson fans, but Toquinho is awesome and he'll be a wrecking machine in the sport for a long time.

I've only watched it once, and it was with my betting eyes on Palhares. But my impression was it kinda sucked Henderson can win by passively defending throughout the fight. It didn't look like he was there to fight at all -- just there not to lose.

[heckyl]

I was very sad that Rousimar Palhares lost. Although, most people here were disputing the decision. One thing was certain; 30-27 was absolute bullshit. It was a split decision if that. I know there are a lot of Dan Henderson fans, but Toquinho is awesome and he'll be a wrecking machine in the sport for a long time.

WTF it was a split decision?? why do people say that? you are basically saying that for whatever reason, 1 judge should have disagreed and gave the fight to the other guy. i think you mean it should have been a 2 rounds to 1 decision, or a 29-28. split is when 2 judges say fighter A won and 1 judge says fighter B won.

Palhares lost fairly btw. i dont see any dispute in that fight.

[Bangalter]

Palhares= What shots! a bit one dimensional though.
Evans=Gooood gameplan, and improved.
Liddel=Haven't evolved, needed to unload when he had Evans against the cage in the first round and didn't, if I were Chuck I could retire soon. (maybe at 40?)
Hendo=Good win, the only guy that can beat Andersson if he can make it a wrestling match.

[aubtin]

Fantastic KO from Rashad. Franklin looked good he showed nice movement against someone who was just plodding forward. To me the Kim and Henderson fights were obvious 29-28 fights, I can't imagine how they could be seen any differently.

[seese]

As good as Evans KO was, as bad was Chucks defense. Hell, he dropped his left arm below his waist. Well, you thought he would have learned not to do that after 16 years in the UFC. But he once against got punished for it.

Palhares looked quite good but as said above, he´s a bit one dimensional. I don´t give much for those fancy kicks.

Franklin looked ok too. A bit surprised that Hamill didn´t try to block the kicks or tried to take Franklin down earlier, to avoid beeing humiliated by the kicks.

I wasn´t overly thrilled by the event.

[FieldingMellish]

WTF it was a split decision?? why do people say that? you are basically saying that for whatever reason, 1 judge should have disagreed and gave the fight to the other guy. i think you mean it should have been a 2 rounds to 1 decision, or a 29-28. split is when 2 judges say fighter A won and 1 judge says fighter B won.

Palhares lost fairly btw. i dont see any dispute in that fight.

Agree with you 100%. Excellent post.

The scary thing is, I've heard Frank Trigg (while commentating) come out with the same nonsense.

I had it 29-28 for Henderson (only because Palhares was slightly closer to finishing in the second) and can't believe there would be any dispute or controversy over the decision.

[heckyl]

Agree with you 100%. Excellent post.

The scary thing is, I've heard Frank Trigg (while commentating) come out with the same nonsense.

I had it 29-28 for Henderson (only because Palhares was slightly closer to finishing in the second) and can't believe there would be any dispute or controversy over the decision.

i have heard frank say it before too... terrible. education needed for sure.

[Ba Bu]

Round 1 was obvious for Hendo.
Round 2 was quite obviously Toquinho's
Round 3 could have gone either way. I just watched it again.

In any case, the two judges that called it 30-27 are idiots.

[heckyl]

round 3 could have gone either way? if you say so. ill whole heartedly disagree, though.

[migs]

I thought Henderson won cleanly enough...no problem with that one.

I thought Kim won fair and square too, though it was pretty damn close.

Damn didn't expect to see Chuck and his legendary chin laid out like that though! Damn!

Kampman getting KOd was a shocker too. Props to Nate M but I still think Kampmann has great potential.

[K-1 Extremist]

Kampmann absorbed a tremendous amount of punishment before he went down though. That boy's got a chin of granite. I believe it was a body shot that sealed the deal.

[FieldingMellish]

I thought Henderson won cleanly enough...no problem with that one.

I thought Kim won fair and square too, though it was pretty damn close.

Damn didn't expect to see Chuck and his legendary chin laid out like that though! Damn!

Kampman getting KOd was a shocker too. Props to Nate M but I still think Kampmann has great potential.

Kim-Brown WAS a close fight, but sadly it was one that I found p-retty dull and wandered off to do other things more than once, so wouldn't like to give an opinion on who won.

The Chuck fight just left me feeling sad. Partly because I absoluterly hated watching Rashad prancing around, feinting and doing nothing at all for the entire first round. I was so desperate to see Chuck just KTFO him and then the opposite happened. Even worse, thanks to Rashad's wife screeching like that (I thought it was Loretta Hunt for sure) in that unbelievably annoying way, I doubt I'll ever be able to watch that at all. And what was with Rashad playing with his nipples in the pre-fight intros? Whats wrong with the man? He infuriated me so much on that show. But the idea of him potentially as UFC LHW champion is terrifying. I don't think it even matters that he won TUF2, is still undefeated AND KOed Chuck, he just isn't a star. He may have to KO every single name 205 pounder in the sport to get to that point. And even then, he'll struggle.

Was hoping Kampmann would win but was hugely impressed with Marquardt here. Great little fight, by far the best on a dull show.

[bero]

chuck got gonzaga'd

[Jarzi]

The Chuck fight just left me feeling sad. Partly because I absoluterly hated watching Rashad prancing around, feinting and doing nothing at all for the entire first round. I was so desperate to see Chuck just KTFO him and then the opposite happened. Even worse, thanks to Rashad's wife screeching like that (I thought it was Loretta Hunt for sure) in that unbelievably annoying way, I doubt I'll ever be able to watch that at all. And what was with Rashad playing with his nipples in the pre-fight intros? Whats wrong with the man? He infuriated me so much on that show. But the idea of him potentially as UFC LHW champion is terrifying. I don't think it even matters that he won TUF2, is still undefeated AND KOed Chuck, he just isn't a star. He may have to KO every single name 205 pounder in the sport to get to that point. And even then, he'll struggle.


Hehe, for some reason I can't stand Evans either. There's just something in that man I detest.

But Chuck can't go on with his hands down and chin up style against opponents who hit back, after long list of grapplers he has now fought four guys who can strike and has lost three of those. I doubt we'll see Chuck having any relevance at the LHW after this, the new guard has taken over.

[miscmisc]

The way Liddell exposes his chin was always pretty disturbing, and it's kind of unbelievable that he managed to do well for so long without giving a shit about that. I know a lot of folks will attribute it to his decline in speed and whatnot, but something that was somewhat bound to happen happened, I think. I don't think it had to be Evans. Counter KO is in a way weak (especially after doing nothing for an entire round), as in the "puncher's chance," so I'm not sure I'd read too much into this. Liddell did get older, though, quite naturally.

As for Evans not being a star material, I agree. Never liked him, and probably never will, both as a fighter and as a personality. LHW is getting so uninteresting, especially without Shogun, that I might start pretending to like Forrest. He at least has some appeal to me as a fighter.

KDH quite obviously won that fight. I don't know where the word "controversial" flew in from. Brown was game, though.

I like Toquinho, largely due to an NHK documentary that I enjoyed a few years ago, but obviously he couldn't handle someone who spent a great deal of their time in the ground-zero amateur world, where winning the match/outpointing their opponent is all that matters. Horribly boring fight, though.

All in all, forgettable event.

[Jarzi]

The way Liddell exposes his chin was always pretty disturbing, and it's kind of unbelievable that he managed to do well for so long without giving a shit about that. I know a lot of folks will attribute it to his decline in speed and whatnot, but something that was somewhat bound to happen happened, I think. I don't think it had to be Evans. Counter KO is in a way weak (especially after doing nothing for an entire round), as in the "puncher's chance," so I'm not sure I'd read too much into this. Liddell did get older, though, quite naturally.


Well, Chuck has been in trouble with strikers before (Mezger, Overeem and even White IIRC) before landing that one big punch.

[Lord Gaul]

Undefeated means nothing when you haven't stepped up and faced the top dogs yet, Liddell was definitely a step in that direction but IMO not big enough. There are far more deserving guys.
You seem to have a boxing mentalitiy towards this, which was my problem some years back. With the majority of the competition being good in the 205 devision its difficult to get a streak out of someone good enough to get a title shot. Girffin got a title shot because of one big win. Rashad has got a title shot because of big win, backed by a 0 in the loss column. That is a fight that sells. just like Couture vs Brock. That fight makes no since to me and disrespects the idea that Nog is current champ. It only makes since in a business world.

I have been trying to fix my problems with the MMA scene lately and my first move in fixing that mentality is to stop seeing things a boxing division type mountain to climb. It makes more since to see it as a business that is backed by names and there is money in putting the names against each other. First TUF champ vs 2 TUF champ for the 205 champ, makes since to me.

[FieldingMellish]

You seem to have a boxing mentalitiy towards this, which was my problem some years back. With the majority of the competition being good in the 205 devision its difficult to get a streak out of someone good enough to get a title shot. Girffin got a title shot because of one big win. Rashad has got a title shot because of big win, backed by a 0 in the loss column. That is a fight that sells. just like Couture vs Brock. That fight makes no since to me and disrespects the idea that Nog is current champ. It only makes since in a business world.

I have been trying to fix my problems with the MMA scene lately and my first move in fixing that mentality is to stop seeing things a boxing division type mountain to climb. It makes more since to see it as a business that is backed by names and there is money in putting the names against each other. First TUF champ vs 2 TUF champ for the 205 champ, makes since to me.

Griffin-Rashad is a fight that sells? Really?

Comparing it to Lesnar-Couture is WAY off base for the simple reason Lesnar-Couture will double the PPV numbers of Griffin-Rashad.

Also, Lesnar-Couture making sense only on a business level doesn't matter, since as you point out MMA is a business.

And Noguiera isn't the HW champion anyway. He's the interim champion. Wouldn't it disrepect Couture to pretend Noguiera was the real champion when Couture never lost the title?

[Jarzi]

Griffin-Rashad is a fight that sells? Really?

Comparing it to Lesnar-Couture is WAY off base for the simple reason Lesnar-Couture will double the PPV numbers of Griffin-Rashad.

Also, Lesnar-Couture making sense only on a business level doesn't matter, since as you point out MMA is a business.

And Noguiera isn't the HW champion anyway. He's the interim champion. Wouldn't it disrepect Couture to pretend Noguiera was the real champion when Couture never lost the title?

MMA is a sport, UFC is a business. And Couture relinquished the title so in my eyes Nog is the "real" champion.

[Long Fist]

I have been trying to fix my problems with the MMA scene lately and my first move in fixing that mentality is to stop seeing things a boxing division type mountain to climb. It makes more since to see it as a business that is backed by names and there is money in putting the names against each other. First TUF champ vs 2 TUF champ for the 205 champ, makes since to me.


Am I totally wrong having an impression that in boxing you are also supposed to beat the Champion very clearly to get the belt and that when there is no superiority shown "beyond reasonable doubt", the champ should keep his belt?

[Long Fist]

And what was with Rashad playing with his nipples in the pre-fight intros?

Greg Jackson's training camp inside joke? (GSP supposedly done the same)
http://www.jacksonsmma.com/

(also Evans' T-shirt with a Bill Gates mug shot referred to Albuquerqee where the camp is located - that T shirt was great because it make you to think what it was about ...lot of subtle messages)

Chuck Lidell is an old school fighter who had a great psychological advantage when he was winning, because of his attitude, confidence and the UFC hype machine presenting him as bigger than he was - fighter.

Chuck is fighting against time now, therefore he was fighting like he was in a hurry, because Evans was gettin more relaxed and confident each minute ...


Chuck is becoming history, representing a bygone era, he needs to decide if he's willing to end up like Tank Abbot.

There is a kind of scissors-paper-stone situation in UFC LHW division... the younger, technical new school fighters have an edge over Liddel, but then there is Wnaderlei, who has more weapons than Liddell stalking for a right hand KO ...

but then, there is a route for Liddel to regain his belt;

first; Evans could beat Griffin

then he has one insignificant title defence;

then UFC has Wand fighting Rampage, and they are hoping Wand to win;

then Wand gets a title shot against Evans, and wins (like he beat Jardine from the Jackson gym);


then Chuck could have a title shot against Wand ...

they could have Wand asking for the revenge match ...


gotta stop speculating

[FieldingMellish]

MMA is a sport, UFC is a business. And Couture relinquished the title so in my eyes Nog is the "real" champion.

No, MMA, or perhaps I should say, promoting MMA is a business. The fact you note UFC is a business proves they're the only promotion out there with a clue as to what they're doing.

I actually agree with you about Nogueira being the 'real' champion since Couture walked out in a strop about not getting MORE money than he was actually entitled to, but UFC have never called Nogueira the HW champion. He's always been the interim champion and from that standpoint, Couture coming back and defending his belt makes perfect sense.

I've always hated the interim champion nonsense that Zuffa imported from boxing and always will but that's the reality of the situation.

[FieldingMellish]

Am I totally wrong having an impression that in boxing you are also supposed to beat the Champion very clearly to get the belt and that when there is no superiority shown "beyond reasonable doubt", the champ should keep his belt?

I've always absolutely hated that totally stupid, horribly prevalent idea in boxing.

Does it happen in any other sport? If you're a smaller soccer team playing Manchester United do you have to beat them by at least 2 goals to be declared the winner?

No.

If you're in the Superbowl playing against the defending champions, do you have to beat them by at least 7 points?

No.

[Long Fist]

I've always absolutely hated that totally stupid, horribly prevalent idea in boxing.

Does it happen in any other sport? If you're a smaller soccer team playing Manchester United do you have to beat them by at least 2 goals to be declared the winner?

No.

If you're in the Superbowl playing against the defending champions, do you have to beat them by at least 7 points?

No.


the difference being that in soccer and in American football the scoring is a matter of book keeping instead of judging based on impressions.


I find there to be some appeal in the idea that there is the *reigning* champion *defending* his belt and a contender/challenger trying to *win* the belt. Letting there be a slight asymmetry in favor of the champ, letting him to "reign" for a while.

Instead of there being ever changing champions at-the
-moment.

It would be ok with me, if the champ defends and keep his title being "elusive", defending, low kicking every now and then. But if the Champ for some reason cannot put away an elusive low kicker, it would be strange to award this elusive guy with the belt, even if some of the judges thought the challenger had some nice low kicks.

[FieldingMellish]

the difference being that in soccer and in American football the scoring is a matter of book keeping instead of judging based on impressions.


I find there to be some appeal in the idea that there is the *reigning* champion *defending* his belt and a contender/challenger trying to *win* the belt. Letting there be a slight asymmetry in favor of the champ, letting him to "reign" for a while.

Instead of there being ever changing champions at-the
-moment.

It would be ok with me, if the champ defends and keep his title being "elusive", defending, low kicking every now and then. But if the Champ for some reason cannot put away an elusive low kicker, it would be strange to award this elusive guy with the belt, even if some of the judges thought the challenger had some nice low kicks.

You're saying (and I know there are huge numbers of people out there who agree with you) its fine for somebody to not clearly, or even actually win their fight because their status going into it is higher than their opponent's.

Why stop with giving the champion that advantage?

How about the guy who got the big crowd reaction because he's fighting in his hometown?

Or the big star who pulled the big crowd/TV rating/PPV number?

Or just the best looking or more charismatic fighter?

Anyway, there aren't "ever changing champions" in MMA because fighters aren't given that so-called 'championship advantage'. There's more title changes and hard-to-predict fights because its a more difficult to predict, multi-faceted sport.

To take your example of the elusive low kicker - if he lands more strikes and does more damage over five rounds using just his low kicks and the champion can't get near him, then why should that champion get the decision?

[migs]

The Chuck fight just left me feeling sad. Partly because I absoluterly hated watching Rashad prancing around, feinting and doing nothing at all for the entire first round. I was so desperate to see Chuck just KTFO him and then the opposite happened. Even worse, thanks to Rashad's wife screeching like that (I thought it was Loretta Hunt for sure) in that unbelievably annoying way, I doubt I'll ever be able to watch that at all. And what was with Rashad playing with his nipples in the pre-fight intros? Whats wrong with the man? He infuriated me so much on that show. But the idea of him potentially as UFC LHW champion is terrifying. I don't think it even matters that he won TUF2, is still undefeated AND KOed Chuck, he just isn't a star. He may have to KO every single name 205 pounder in the sport to get to that point. And even then, he'll struggle.


I agree Rashad was annoying last night. Usually I like him more than most but with his "elusive" chicken shake style and his wife screaming, I was bothered by his whole thing.

I hope he gets owned next time, so I don't have to hear that annoying fucking woman ever again.

[EckY]

Kim-Brown WAS a close fight, but sadly it was one that I found p-retty dull and wandered off to do other things more than once, so wouldn't like to give an opinion on who won.

The Chuck fight just left me feeling sad. Partly because I absoluterly hated watching Rashad prancing around, feinting and doing nothing at all for the entire first round. I was so desperate to see Chuck just KTFO him and then the opposite happened. Even worse, thanks to Rashad's wife screeching like that (I thought it was Loretta Hunt for sure) in that unbelievably annoying way, I doubt I'll ever be able to watch that at all. And what was with Rashad playing with his nipples in the pre-fight intros? Whats wrong with the man? He infuriated me so much on that show. But the idea of him potentially as UFC LHW champion is terrifying. I don't think it even matters that he won TUF2, is still undefeated AND KOed Chuck, he just isn't a star. He may have to KO every single name 205 pounder in the sport to get to that point. And even then, he'll struggle.

Was hoping Kampmann would win but was hugely impressed with Marquardt here. Great little fight, by far the best on a dull show.

I dont really understand the Rashad hate at all. Clearly his gameplan was to prance around and not really engage for the first round, which would piss Chuck off, as it did, and lead to Chuck leaving himself more open in the 2nd, which it did. Chuck thought thats all Rashad had and showed no respect for his striking, Rashad baited him then turned it on in the second, compeltely outstriking Chuck before putting him to sleep.

I too used to hate on Rashad's boring style and always going to decision but it is clear he has improved a lot and is definately a top LHW now, no denying that. I can see where you are coming from with drawing power, but as a fighter he has now proven himself. People forget that Chuck was not always a KO artist, he had quite a few decisions under his belt before he started KOing guys left and right too.

[FieldingMellish]

I dont really understand the Rashad hate at all. Clearly his gameplan was to prance around and not really engage for the first round, which would piss Chuck off, as it did, and lead to Chuck leaving himself more open in the 2nd, which it did. Chuck thought thats all Rashad had and showed no respect for his striking, Rashad baited him then turned it on in the second, compeltely outstriking Chuck before putting him to sleep.

I too used to hate on Rashad's boring style and always going to decision but it is clear he has improved a lot and is definately a top LHW now, no denying that. I can see where you are coming from with drawing power, but as a fighter he has now proven himself. People forget that Chuck was not always a KO artist, he had quite a few decisions under his belt before he started KOing guys left and right too.

Don't get me wrong, Rashad fought the perfect fight to beat the aged, painfully predictable Chuck but Rashad has proven himself only in the fact he's beaten Liddell. So has Jardine, and he's no star either.

The problem is that Rashad won this fight (and generally fights) in such a way that he'll never be a star. Too negative, too boring, too small to win too many fights in a row at 205 AND too little charisma.

[Soulrise]

Count me in as one of the few on this board that enjoys Rashad. I wasn't so much impressed with his hand speed as I was his footwork and foot speed in how he was able to almost perfectly manuever himself out or Chuck's striking range only to jump in real quick, get his shots off, and then move back out of range before Chuck could land anything significantly. I don't know how much it'll sell but I'm actually looking forward to the Rashad/Forrest showdown now.

I wish they could've shown Chonan/Carneiro.

Hendo/Marquardt is looking like the most attractive bout for the UFC's middleweight division.

I've learned to tolerate and at times even appreciate Joe Rogan's commentary but the way he handled the post-fight interviews with Kim and Brown pissed me the hell off.

I doubt Tim Boetsch will ever be a contender but he sure is fun to watch.

Overall I enjoyed this card a lot more than I thought I would.

[EckY]

Chuck has no charisma either, he just has a look and went on a KO spree and he is white, which seems to help for some reason.

Rashad will never get to that level of stardom but he doesnt exactly draw peanuts, if I remeber right UFC 78 didnt do too badly in ppv buys with him vs Bisping headlining. Clearly he is no Tito, Randy, Chuck, etc but a fight with him vs Forrest would do pretty well imo, not aswell as Chuck Forrest but still decent especially if it has a solid co main with it.

What gets me though is that even 6 months ago if someone was to tell me Forrest vs Rashad for the 205 title I would have laughed in their face.

[Soulrise]

Oh and one last thing: Rashad's choice to come out to "Point of No Return" by Immortal Technique is probably the greatest choice of entrance music by an MMA fighter EVER.

If you haven't heard the track before do yourself a favor and give it a listen.

[EckY]

yea coming out to Technique was quite cool, the Gates mugshot tshirt was funny too.

i never really liked or disliked rashad all that much but i am definately warming to him.

[FieldingMellish]

Chuck has no charisma either, he just has a look and went on a KO spree and he is white, which seems to help for some reason.

Rashad will never get to that level of stardom but he doesnt exactly draw peanuts, if I remeber right UFC 78 didnt do too badly in ppv buys with him vs Bisping headlining. Clearly he is no Tito, Randy, Chuck, etc but a fight with him vs Forrest would do pretty well imo, not aswell as Chuck Forrest but still decent especially if it has a solid co main with it.

What gets me though is that even 6 months ago if someone was to tell me Forrest vs Rashad for the 205 title I would have laughed in their face.

Chuck has no charisma? Have you seen a crowd react to him just sitting there looking drunk?

And I find it a little suspect, if not offensive that you're bringing his ethnicity into this. Fighting fans have NEVER had a problem with their heavy handed KO superstars' colour or race.

And Rashad-Bisping did pretty well but you have to remember there's a baseline of what a UFC PPV is going to do, based purely on the 'UFC' tag.

[EckY]

Chuck has no charisma? Have you seen a crowd react to him just sitting there looking drunk?

And I find it a little suspect, if not offensive that you're bringing his ethnicity into this. Fighting fans have NEVER had a problem with their heavy handed KO superstars' colour or race.

And Rashad-Bisping did pretty well but you have to remember there's a baseline of what a UFC PPV is going to do, based purely on the 'UFC' tag.

Being loved by the fans for being a KO machine isnt exactly being charismatic.

Also the race thing is definately valid, if that isnt the case then why was there such a thing as the great white hope all the time in boxing? Kelly Pavlik for example. There are tons of posts on message boards with people saying all the white people in bars were sitting looking upset whilst the black people were all cheering.

I dont give a shit about it, but it definately exists.

[Toffa]

Being loved by the fans for being a KO machine isnt exactly being charismatic.

Also the race thing is definately valid, if that isnt the case then why was there such a thing as the great white hope all the time in boxing? Kelly Pavlik for example. There are tons of posts on message boards with people saying all the white people in bars were sitting looking upset whilst the black people were all cheering.

I dont give a shit about it, but it definately exists.

Are you seriously saying that Kelly Pavlik is just a great white hope? You have watched him fight haven't you? And you do realise he is the champion of his division?

[xavion]

Are you seriously saying that Kelly Pavlik is just a great white hope? You have watched him fight haven't you? And you do realise he is the champion of his division?

Pavlik was not really the example to use, but there certainly is (has?) been that 'Great White Hope' phenomenon in the past.

[EckY]

Are you seriously saying that Kelly Pavlik is just a great white hope? You have watched him fight haven't you? And you do realise he is the champion of his division?

Yea probably not the best example, he is the shit regardless of race, but the term great white hope is not something I just made up.

[migs]

I hear you on Chuck's personality. He did have a lot of doubters at the start that mybe could have been overcome with some personality.

His talking in the ring was impossible to ignore though and I think people really came to like his cold blooded "iceman" nature.

Every time he fights still, I wonder if he is going to hold his hands a little higher but he never does...they got lower over the years I think.

[K-1 Extremist]

I liked how Rashad was dancing to Chuck's entrance music.

[FieldingMellish]

Yea probably not the best example, he is the shit regardless of race, but the term great white hope is not something I just made up.

No, its a term left over from the 1920s.

[EckY]

Fact is looking at the demographics MMA isnt as big with the urban (black) and mexican people in the US, Dana has talked about wanting to get more into those markets. I think it is slowly getting there with them pushing Roger Huerta and Rampage, now Rashad also.

But up until now the majoirty of the fans in US have been young, white guys witht he majority of the athletes being white also, at least in the US. There are massive threads on the UG all about this.

[Bangalter]

I liked how Rashad was dancing to Chuck's entrance music.

Agreed, I think I'm a fan of Rashad now.

[miscmisc]

No, its a term left over from the 1920s.

...and well alive in the 21st century USA. And no, Pavlik can't be excluded from that long list either. He WAS a Great White Hope. He was treated as such by lots and lots of people, including matchmakers. Maybe the term doesn't surface a lot nowadays due to the clear racial tone of it, but Joe Koizumi, a Japanese boxing commentator/matchmaker who regularly writes for the Ring Magazine, said in a boxing program here that Pavlik was called exactly that from the beginning by a lot of people in the industry no matter what some people say. Joe knows everybody, being fluent in both English and Spanish and having been in the business for decades. Obviously they smelled money there. Maybe he has graduated from the term, and is now a Great White Champion instead, but that's just beside the point, I think.

Yeah, I know the original point is whether the appeal (lack thereof, I mean) of Evans has anything to do with races, and in my case and your case it certainly doesn't (I'm someone who likes Jeremy fucking Horn, and tell me how I can ever embrace fighters like Evans, LOL), but I just can't accept the kind of comments that sound like trying to erase a certain aspect of the reality.

[sweeptheleg]

I like fighters who hit other fighters.

One of the most visious KO's I remember watching live. Great stuff.

Chuck has been a good champion, but I don't see him climbing back up the ranks after this.

[Chewbaca Joe]

But he's white.

[ilostmydog]

But he's white.

It's true. I was there.

[Titan]

From what I've read was said on TAGG Radio:

- Evans came out to Gates mugshot taken in Albequerqe because Jackson's Gym is next door to the basement Microsoft started in; an inside joke

- Evans squeezed and twisted his nipples because GSP had done it in a previous fight after reading ancient warriors did it for good luck; another inside joke

And about Chuck:

- knockouts is the one thing in fighting that doesn't make you tougher; all it does is make it easier to get knocked out, and he's been knocked out cold twice recently, so it's just going to get easier to be knocked out when he's hit in coming fights

About the event:

- not very entertaining