MMA faces its biggest test

[Lord Gaul]

As far as product goes MMA is a big deal right now. Even if the cards are not all that exciting the turnout for events is huge in the states and in countries like Australia, England, etc. I think that it is so hot right now that everyone thinks they can make money off of it. This introduces a few problems that will bring about the toughest test for MMA as a sport.

MMA, whether its fans like it or not is brand name pushed. Meaning that the most important thing is not so much the fighters and more so the company names. This is why Rampage can beat Chuck once and not really get noticed, then face him again and be a superstar. Both wins were convising, but one was in the UFC and the other was in Pride. The companies and promoters know this, which is why we everyone and there mother are trying to get into MMA right now. Elite XC is run by a boxing promoter so I see the transition easy for him, but Affliction, the rumor of Ecko, and Bodog are all companies that do not specialize in combat sports, but all are trying there hand in it, because it allows them to sell there main products. This is a problem for the simple fact that fighters and fans are now buying into the new shows looking for the next UFC competiter. Which means that we are about to get alot of big star vs nobody cards and a commercial between every fight and round. Donald Trump, further proof that this is a jumping trend, said that if Affliction sells 300,000 PPV it would be worth it because they will probably sell 10 million shirts because of it. It is a blow to the sport that we have people getting into it because it is trend and because it allows them to sell more of there product.

The long run problem of this would be something like Bodog. Sure fighters got there biggest paydays for a year and a few guys emerged. In the end it left more fighters without a home then it did create stars. We have forgoten most of the fighters and it looks as though the CEO is going to move on and focus on his online gambling. I see this same thing happening with Affliction and Ecko if they do indeed start and organization. It will bring them more profit in clothing then it will in fighting and once it goes south they will bail on MMA and back to models full time. This will of course leave alot of fighters out of work, and just as bad it will leave them with this idea that they are worth a higher price tag then they are. The will go from 10,000 at Affliction to 3,000 and UFC and that is just for the really exceptional fighters. The majority of the fighters will return to the 3 figure fights of there hometowns.

On top of this is of course this idea that MMA has staying power. I do not believe it does and more importantly I do not believe what we see now is the greatest reflection of what the sport is going to be in 10 years. I hear all the time that people feel that MMA is only going to get bigger. That is rediculous to assume, especially if you are using its current success as a gage. Clearly it has room to grow, and it is a very entertaining product that will only get better as the fighters get better. But if there is only two profiting organizations left in ten years(IFL is not profiting, and Dream is not profiting yet, but will be soon, Sengoku is not profiting, though this is more a look at the states) and both having rosters of about 200 at that time, that leaves a whole lot of fighters not getting anything they can live of off. And that is assuming that Elite FC has developed a solid roster of fighters who are getting paid. Remember Kimbo gets paid the most right now and I actually think there is a chance that Gina is up there. I know she gets paid more then Noons and he is a champion. This cannot continue.

So in closing I am hoping that MMA endures the whoring of the sport. Nothing would be worse then if in ten years people are refering to MMA as UFC fighting still, because it means that no one has emerged enough to be a ligit sustaining rival. On Sat. there was a Kelly Pavlik fight. Not a Top Rank card. The fighter first and the Promotion second. When that happens then MMA is in a good place, rather then a hot trend. Because fighters will always continue to get better and be entertaining. Fighters are here to stay, promotion are not.

[timmothy84]

I have been a huge fan of the mma since I watched my first MMA show at UFC 13, when Vitor beat Tank, and Randy beating two big big guys, and Tito losing to Guy. But here recently I have been burnt out on the sport. It seems to be every where. Which is awesome and good for it but, like you said, too many companies trying to get into it now and really just to much to keep up with. I have went back to watching boxing, and I swear boxing has got it's classic feel back, well to me anyways. Every fight this year in boxing has been fantastic. I like to see it go back to primetime.

[Newman]

You talk about the "Kelly Pavlik fight" though as if that's a good thing, in reality it's not. Sure it should be about the fighters but unless you're a hardcore boxing fan the undercards are usually chock-full of meaningless fights on these shows.

People knock the UFC for supposedly heading the same way as boxing with one big fight and a filler undercard but really it's nowhere near as bad - part of the reason the UFC brand is such a strong draw is because for the majority of the cards the undercard features well-known fighters. When I watch the UFC with my friends we're pretty much looking forward to at least three of the five televised bouts because we know the fighters, and most of those guys are real casual fans.

The only problem with multiple companies emerging is that the talent pool gets stretched and split up. The best thing for MMA - from a fan's POV - would be, as I've said before, for all the top fighters to end up in one organization which has a monopoly. If that's UFC, so be it.

[Atze]

^Not true. Malignaggi - Ndou was one of the funniest fights in the history of boxing. There are few fights which are in that category of silliness. Bowe - Golotha is equally bizarre.

[timmothy84]

You talk about the "Kelly Pavlik fight" though as if that's a good thing, in reality it's not. Sure it should be about the fighters but unless you're a hardcore boxing fan the undercards are usually chock-full of meaningless fights on these shows.

People knock the UFC for supposedly heading the same way as boxing with one big fight and a filler undercard but really it's nowhere near as bad - part of the reason the UFC brand is such a strong draw is because for the majority of the cards the undercard features well-known fighters. When I watch the UFC with my friends we're pretty much looking forward to at least three of the five televised bouts because we know the fighters, and most of those guys are real casual fans.

The only problem with multiple companies emerging is that the talent pool gets stretched and split up. The best thing for MMA - from a fan's POV - would be, as I've said before, for all the top fighters to end up in one organization which has a monopoly. If that's UFC, so be it.

Don't get me wrong, UFC is the only company I am keeping up with now. I dropped the rest like bad habbits. UFC to me has the best talent. A few years ago I wouldn't be saying this but after the lackluster of the Pride Fighters in the UFC, I have to change my opinion.

As for Kelly, he had to fight Lockett last weekend it was a match forced on too him. That fight is suppose to lead up to a Calazghe match later this year or early next. The undercard that was shown on Pavliks card had Daniel Ponce De Leon, which is a undefeated Featherweight with a belt against Lopez which turned out to be very exciting; ending with a new champ. On the same night Showtime had Paul Williams vs Quintana which are two exteremly talent fighters haveing a rematch. Then Vernon Forrest fought and lost on that night too. I will admit boxing can have weak undercards, but here recently these have been great matches.

Like the MMA the middle weight, and Welter Weight classes are stacked with great talent in boxing. Cotto, Margaito, Williams, Arthur Abraham, Miranda, Joe Calazghe, Kessler, I could go on and on. These classes come close to being just as good as SRL, Haglar, Duran, and Hearns classes.

[Jarzi]

The only problem with multiple companies emerging is that the talent pool gets stretched and split up. The best thing for MMA - from a fan's POV - would be, as I've said before, for all the top fighters to end up in one organization which has a monopoly. If that's UFC, so be it.

Best for the fans would be if there was an international sanctioning body with a world title and rankings.

[sweeptheleg]

You all bring up very valid points and concerns. The sport is definitely growing faster than it can handle at the moment. What I hope is that MMA pushes through this and in the end the one or two major North American promotions survive and unite the talent on this side of the pond so that cards aren't as watered down as they appear to be getting now. As for Japanese MMA, its nice to see a couple orgs starting to flourish in the wake of PRIDE's death. Only time will tell how this rapid NA growth will affect the sport as a whole, but I feel that it will come out fine on the other side. As long as their remains people involved with the sport that are passionate and dedicated to making it as good as it can be (see: John McCarthy).

[FieldingMellish]

I think that it is so hot right now that everyone thinks they can make money off of it. This introduces a few problems that will bring about the toughest test for MMA as a sport.

I think you're several months behind on this one. The amount of people who think they can make money off MMA has actually been shrinking rapidly. Why else would De La Hoya pull out of any association with Affliction? Yes, Donald Trump has waded in but according to sources within pro wrestling, he was blown away by the money/hype/crowd of Wrestlemania in 2007 where he helped put on the most financially successful pro wrestling event in history. From this, Trump wanted to get involved but knew there was no point challenging Vince McMahon so has gone for the next best thing - MMA.

Anyway, with IFL, BodogFight and EliteXC posting such enormous money losses in 2007/08 I'm not sure many people are really thinking MMA is any kind of goldmine. And lets not forget the impending collapse of Cage Rage in the UK and the sudden silence from the YAMMA camp.

The EliteXC rating on CBS was a HUGE success BUT their share price dropped heavily the next day as investors just had no confidence this would be anything more than a short term success. Thats a bad sign. Besides, EliteXC won't have 'made it' opn CBS until they can pull ratings consistently.

MMA, whether its fans like it or not is brand name pushed. Meaning that the most important thing is not so much the fighters and more so the company names. This is why Rampage can beat Chuck once and not really get noticed, then face him again and be a superstar. Both wins were convising, but one was in the UFC and the other was in Pride. The companies and promoters know this, which is why we everyone and there mother are trying to get into MMA right now. Elite XC is run by a boxing promoter so I see the transition easy for him, but Affliction, the rumor of Ecko, and Bodog are all companies that do not specialize in combat sports, but all are trying there hand in it, because it allows them to sell there main products. This is a problem for the simple fact that fighters and fans are now buying into the new shows looking for the next UFC competiter. Which means that we are about to get alot of big star vs nobody cards and a commercial between every fight and round. Donald Trump, further proof that this is a jumping trend, said that if Affliction sells 300,000 PPV it would be worth it because they will probably sell 10 million shirts because of it. It is a blow to the sport that we have people getting into it because it is trend and because it allows them to sell more of there product.

A few points...

Promoting MMA is different than boxing and Gary Shaw has proven to be a failure (in the long term at least) as a boxing promoter.

I totally agree with you about Affliction using MMA as a way to push their main business. HDNet are doing the same thing. I'd leave BodogFight out of the argument by this point though, lol.

I share your worries about the fragmentation of the sport but I'm not sure fighters are looking to find a new competitor to UFC. If you look at the people who have signed with Affliction, for example, its mostly people who had poor relations with Zuffa (Lindland, Fedor, Barnett), people Zuffa were happy to release (Sylvia) or people demanding a price tag they simply aren't worth (Arlovski & Sylvia again).

Fighters are like anyone else - they want to be paid for their work and if somebody comes along offering enormous money they'd be stupid to turn it down. That doesn't instantly mean Affliction are a genuione competitor. Especially when their own VP has put a three show limit on evaluating this project's success. Zuffa stuck with a money-losing enterprise for some 4 years.[/QUOTE]


The long run problem of this would be something like Bodog. Sure fighters got there biggest paydays for a year and a few guys emerged. In the end it left more fighters without a home then it did create stars. We have forgoten most of the fighters and it looks as though the CEO is going to move on and focus on his online gambling. I see this same thing happening with Affliction and Ecko if they do indeed start and organization. It will bring them more profit in clothing then it will in fighting and once it goes south they will bail on MMA and back to models full time. This will of course leave alot of fighters out of work, and just as bad it will leave them with this idea that they are worth a higher price tag then they are. The will go from 10,000 at Affliction to 3,000 and UFC and that is just for the really exceptional fighters. The majority of the fighters will return to the 3 figure fights of there hometowns.


Totally agree with you. We're not looking at a shiny new world here...

On top of this is of course this idea that MMA has staying power. I do not believe it does and more importantly I do not believe what we see now is the greatest reflection of what the sport is going to be in 10 years. I hear all the time that people feel that MMA is only going to get bigger. That is rediculous to assume, especially if you are using its current success as a gage. Clearly it has room to grow, and it is a very entertaining product that will only get better as the fighters get better. But if there is only two profiting organizations left in ten years(IFL is not profiting, and Dream is not profiting yet, but will be soon, Sengoku is not profiting, though this is more a look at the states) and both having rosters of about 200 at that time, that leaves a whole lot of fighters not getting anything they can live of off. And that is assuming that Elite FC has developed a solid roster of fighters who are getting paid. Remember Kimbo gets paid the most right now and I actually think there is a chance that Gina is up there. I know she gets paid more then Noons and he is a champion. This cannot continue.

So in closing I am hoping that MMA endures the whoring of the sport. Nothing would be worse then if in ten years people are refering to MMA as UFC fighting still, because it means that no one has emerged enough to be a ligit sustaining rival.

I think you're being too pessimistic about MMA's future prospects. That's right I'M the optimistic one here, lol.

Gina Carano is worth FAR more money than KJ Noons. And why not? She brings mainstream attention to the sport, is something different, is superb at charming the media and always has great fights. Noons is a man with a company title who the vast majority of MMA fans couldn't pick out of a police line-up. Carano is so much more valuable to EliteXC than Noons that its just not a reasonable comparison.

Finally....

Great thread. Lots to think about.

[Lord Gaul]

Thanks for the comments all. I am a big boxing fan so I see those state of the game magazines all the time. I guess the thing that sparked this post was all the high ratings Elite FC talk. This was getting people to think that if elite xc can be sucessful, UFC would do double and and organization up start will match it. And the sport will go on to dethrown football in 3 years are something. I just wanted to focus on what I thought was really going on in the game at this moment. Next month I will do it again in a more positive manner just to show my diversity.

Oh and Fielding I only used Gina to show that a champion should get paid more then a figure head down the road. Gina is a good fighter, but she is not popular for being a good fighter. She is popular for being a gorgeous fighter. If we are going to bring ligitamacy to the game long run outlook has to mean champions get paid more. as for value at this stage, Gina is 10 times more important than Noons and he getting paid more makes since to me. I was refering more so to the long run.

Oh and I think Shaw is a solid boxing promoter.

[SVED]

You talk about the "Kelly Pavlik fight" though as if that's a good thing, in reality it's not. Sure it should be about the fighters but unless you're a hardcore boxing fan the undercards are usually chock-full of meaningless fights on these shows.

People knock the UFC for supposedly heading the same way as boxing with one big fight and a filler undercard but really it's nowhere near as bad - part of the reason the UFC brand is such a strong draw is because for the majority of the cards the undercard features well-known fighters. When I watch the UFC with my friends we're pretty much looking forward to at least three of the five televised bouts because we know the fighters, and most of those guys are real casual fans.

The only problem with multiple companies emerging is that the talent pool gets stretched and split up. The best thing for MMA - from a fan's POV - would be, as I've said before, for all the top fighters to end up in one organization which has a monopoly. If that's UFC, so be it.



short + Sweet---int'l tournaments w/ no exclusivity deals

its the future of Dreams(which should mop up much of the HW talent)

and the Future of EliteXC which will copromote