Werdum vs Vera

[seese]

I made a bet on this fight like a month ago and the odds back then was +111 on Werdum - which I thought were quite good as I see Werdum as the slight favourite.. Now, I checked the odds again and the odds on Werdum had raised to +166 and of course bet some more on this fight.

Am I totally wrong here? Is there anything I have missed in each fighters preparations or is Werdum really that big of an underdog?

[machsaku]

which site do you bet on?

[heckyl]

i see Werdum being blown out on his feet. if he got a takedown he might be able to win, but then you still have to factor in that Vera does know jui jitsu, and that Werdum has shittacular takedowns, and probably wont get one.

[aubtin]

I've got Werdum as favourite too. He's got top jiu jitsu both on top and off his back and I think that'll make the difference in this fight.

[Hinch]

Vera does know jui jitsu

That's like saying Werdum knows Muay Thai. Not exactly a true reflection on the difference between them.

[Gomi Shoji]

i see Werdum being blown out on his feet. if he got a takedown he might be able to win, but then you still have to factor in that Vera does know jui jitsu, and that Werdum has shittacular takedowns, and probably wont get one.

Yeah, I can see a possible replay of Werdum v Arlovski happening here.

[( o Y o )]

I can't say I have been particularly impressed with Vera in any of his fights, though he shows glimpses for gold here and there. I wouldn't be even slightly surprised to see Werd beat him.

[heckyl]

not impressed with all those wins huh? you make it sound like he won a bunch of split decisions.

[heckyl]

That's like saying Werdum knows Muay Thai. Not exactly a true reflection on the difference between them.

well no kidding dude. which is why i said i see him getting blown out on his feet. i dont feel he has the takedown ability whatsoever to even use his jui jitsu. Vera knows enough to defend what little of it hes going to see.

[( o Y o )]

not impressed with all those wins huh? you make it sound like he won a bunch of split decisions.

maybe his mouth gives me more expectations from him than he seems able to deliver? ;-)

[seese]

which site do you bet on?

Pinnacle mostly.

[heckyl]

maybe his mouth gives me more expectations from him than he seems able to deliver? ;-)

i dunno. i seen him knock a bunch of people the fuck out, choke someone, and lose a close decision to a very legitimate Tim Sylvia, with a broken hand mind you. i would say he has delivered while running his mouth, even at his young age.

[( o Y o )]

i dunno. i seen him knock a bunch of people the fuck out, choke someone, and lose a close decision to a very legitimate Tim Sylvia, with a broken hand mind you. i would say he has delivered while running his mouth, even at his young age.

but do you think his opponents overall are vastly better than those Werd has fACED?

Fucking caps lock pisses me off.

[seese]

I haven´t been that impressed by Vera.

He lost a clear decision to Sylvia and if I remember correctly - he didn´t do anything impressive whatsoever.

He won against the most overrated fighter as of now - Mir.

And he did strangely knock Assueiro Silva (whom didn´t protect himself at all times) while both where sitting on the ground and then submit him.

(Below is of course debatable)
Quality opponents Vera:
A; Sylvia (L)
B+; Mir (W)
B; Silva, Eilers, Scherner

Werdum:
A: Nogueira (L)
B+: Kharitonov (split L), Gonzaga (2W), Arlovski (L), A. Emelianenko (W)
B: Einemo, Overeem, Zentsov

Werdum has never been submitted or KO:d, neither has Vera - and I do have to give Vera the edge when it comes to aggression. This will probably go to a decision and it feels like Werdum will take this as he, in my opinion, has fought tougher opponents and does not feel the same pressure.

[Lord Gaul]

I see very winning this fight easy. Werdom is a good winner, but his wrestling sucks and his stand up is average at best. He really hasn't been able to get anyone to the ground and Vera will be more consistent with low kicks then Arlovski was. I don't know if there will be a stoppage, but Truth will win.

[heckyl]

I see very winning this fight easy. Werdom is a good winner, but his wrestling sucks and his stand up is average at best. He really hasn't been able to get anyone to the ground and Vera will be more consistent with low kicks then Arlovski was. I don't know if there will be a stoppage, but Truth will win.

i was wondering when someone else was going to step in and take the same stance as me.


and Seese, he submitted Silva with a guillotine choke. when Assuerio attempted to be mr strong man and pickup vera and slam him, vera slapped it on while in the air.

and to boobs, his opponents arent what we were arguing. i was arguing that his wins have been impressive wether the quality was there or not. this is another case of a fighter being knocked for who he has been given as opponents. he doesnt choose his opponents. he just fights of who is put in front of him, like a real fighter does.

[Grant Ellis]

That's like saying Werdum knows Muay Thai.

Actually it isn't.

Werdum may be world-class at grappling, but Vera's Greco-roman background, ADCC experience, and BJJ brownbelt should not be overlooked as tools in an MMA matchup.

ADCC champion Roberto Travern was submitted in MMA by Frank Mir when Mir was just a purple belt afterall... this is not sports jiu-jitsu, this is not sports grappling.

One only needs to point to the Kharitonov matchup to show what Werdum does when he can't get a takedown.

I think Vera wins by being the better MMA fighter, and will do so by preventing the takedown, and easily outpointing Werdum on the feet. Werdum gets knocked down twice in my opinion, once in the first and once in the third. He spends most of the fight attempting to get in guard.

[( o Y o )]

and to boobs, his opponents arent what we were arguing. i was arguing that his wins have been impressive wether the quality was there or not. this is another case of a fighter being knocked for who he has been given as opponents. he doesnt choose his opponents. he just fights of who is put in front of him, like a real fighter does.


I'm not knocking him for who he has faced, just pointing out that it is far easier to look good against a lower level person that it is against a higher level guy. If you are going to say he looked good subbing/KO'ing guys then who he did that to and at what point in their careers will always come into play.

Personally, I don't even like watching Werdum fight. I have no reason for that at all, he just never set any sparks off for me. I watch his fights of course, but I am not even slightly a fan of his. I actually like Vera a LOT more than Werdum. He probably has more potential too, given the right people and place to train. Those points don't make me feel either has a massively clear advantage over the other though.

[Newman]

Grant pretty much summed up my feelings on this fight. With Vera's wrestling background I totally question how Werdum gets him down. The only thing that worries me for Brandon is Werdum's size advantage.

[Bangalter]

I see Werdum winning by sub or decision here, Werdum has a good chin and cardio.

We'll see..

[seese]

and Seese, he submitted Silva with a guillotine choke. when Assuerio attempted to be mr strong man and pickup vera and slam him, vera slapped it on while in the air.


Yeah, you are right. I don´t know what fight I confused it with. Not that it would have changed my thoughts.

But we will see - as far as betting concerned, I find +166 to be great.

[Grant Ellis]

+166 is good odds for Werdum.

He shouldn't be overlooked.

He does have size and great cardio.

If it does go to the ground it can be over from almost any position; but a lot of that will rely on Vera making mistakes.

[Hinch]

Werdum's the bigger man, and has more than shown he can use his BJJ in MMA by taking down and subbing (with relative ease) a former sambo absolute division world champion.

A bit better than a guillotine on Silva.

[heckyl]

Werdum's the bigger man, and has more than shown he can use his BJJ in MMA by taking down and subbing (with relative ease) a former sambo absolute division world champion.

A bit better than a guillotine on Silva.

the comparison means nothing because vera wont be trying to submit werdum. he will be punching him in the teeth and kicking his legs while werdum tries to overcome vera's wrestling with his own wrestling that just isnt great.

[chorb]

picking werdum to take it. i'm hoping Werdum's time with Chute Boxe has paid off in terms of increased aggressiveness and stronger striking.

[Hinch]

the comparison means nothing because vera wont be trying to submit werdum. he will be punching him in the teeth and kicking his legs while werdum tries to overcome vera's wrestling with his own wrestling that just isnt great.

You mean Aleks' tactic wasn't to strike?

[heckyl]

You mean Aleks' tactic wasn't to strike?

Aleks doesnt have anywhere near the technique that Vera has standing, or the versatility. Come on man you are making this too easy.

[EckY]

Aleks has way better hands than Vera, Vera has better kicks. Aleks looked like he came in to the Werdum fight unprepared, he spent his training camp in Holland training with Aerts to fight Werdum, stupid move imo.

[Grant Ellis]

Werdum's the bigger man, and has more than shown he can use his BJJ in MMA by taking down and subbing (with relative ease) a former sambo absolute division world champion.

A bit better than a guillotine on Silva.

Josh Barnett subbed that same champion with a keylock though, didn't he?

[heckyl]

Vera also knocked out BJJ Black Belt World Champion Fabiano Scherner. Beat him up pretty bad.

[Grant Ellis]

And stopped Brazilian Top Team member, and pupil of Minotauro Nogueira, Andre Mussi by knockout.

[heckyl]

Andre Mussi is on steroids.

[seese]

Vera also knocked out BJJ Black Belt World Champion Fabiano Scherner. Beat him up pretty bad.

And that counts for exactly what? This is what MZN wrote after Scherner fight with Yvel - "...here it progressed in the same line that the last six fights involved only one grappler in the shape of Scherner and such a weak one when it comes to MMA that the beatdown was a nearly a no brainer (too bad Cruz was replaced)".

You yourself was pretty spot on with your prediction for Scherners fight with Gonzaga - "gonzaga by lack of cardio enduced ko".

And this is what mpt0069 wrote in the UFN2 thread - "I was pretty unimpressed with Vera. Scherner had some of the slowest hands I've ever seen in MMA competition and he still got a few in there. Great knee by Vera, though. However, he had better lose that 20 pounds and head down to LHW. I shudder to think what an Andrei A or Sylvia would do to him."

[AKA]

Its a tough matchup, the prediction is difficult!

I have Vera better in overall standup but Werdum probably a lil better in pure boxing.
Werdum better in grappling but Vera is very good too and its MMA, when u get rocked, it change the deal!

Werdum has more experience and he is also bigger. Werdum has a good chin bu Vera too...

I see Werdum winning a close dec, but I can see Vera winning by dec too!
I will NOT bet money on that one!

[Titan]

I bet on Werdum. Vera has had a lay-off due to a broken hand, and it's now been something like 8 months since his last fight. Before that, he had a year since his last fight. Werdum had a similar timeline between his last two fights, but now it's been only a few months, so I think he's getting into the rhythm of fighting. While Vera did well in his Sylvia fight for having been out a long time, being out due to an injury affects your training in-between fights differently than contractual issues do.

So what it comes down to me is what both guys have been doing these last few months. I'm betting that Werdum has trained his stand-up and takedowns, and that with his experience fighting some big names out there in his career, I think he'll go into the fight calmer and get into the fight quicker than Vera to take the fight where he wants it.

On the other hand, Werdum could come in with his bitchslaps, and like against Gonzaga, hesitate clocking him with that knee a dozen times before he finally pulled the trigger. And that's not going to work with Vera. But the odds were too good to resist ...

[Global Honored]

I see Truth Vera by knee/elbow barrage.

[Hinch]

Josh Barnett subbed that same champion with a keylock though, didn't he?

He also nearly beat Nog by submission twice too. And for some reason nog is touted as the best MMA grappler etc. So it's not like being tapped by Barnett is a bad thing.

And comparing Scherner to Werdum is like comparing Franca to Garcia.

As for the better wrestling. Wrestling relies a lot on strength and weight advantages too. Hence kids killing themselves to cut. I think Werdum's size difference will negate some of the wrestling advantage.

He's just too small for heavyweight, despite the skills.

[Paxlie]

He also nearly beat Nog by submission twice too. And for some reason nog is touted as the best MMA grappler etc. So it's not like being tapped by Barnett is a bad thing.

And comparing Scherner to Werdum is like comparing Franca to Garcia.

As for the better wrestling. Wrestling relies a lot on strength and weight advantages too. Hence kids killing themselves to cut. I think Werdum's size difference will negate some of the wrestling advantage.

He's just too small for heavyweight, despite the skills.

Or maybe he can't recover from a cut so he would lose anyway

[Paul T]

I give Vera a slight edge.
it is a good match up and really could go either way.

If either one can KO the other and it does not go to a decision, that would be awesome.

[chorb]

Aleks has way better hands than Vera, Vera has better kicks. Aleks looked like he came in to the Werdum fight unprepared, he spent his training camp in Holland training with Aerts to fight Werdum, stupid move imo.

agreed. the werdum fight is not representative. the kharitinov fight was a better display of aleks' hands. and knees.

[heckyl]

And that counts for exactly what? This is what MZN wrote after Scherner fight with Yvel - "...here it progressed in the same line that the last six fights involved only one grappler in the shape of Scherner and such a weak one when it comes to MMA that the beatdown was a nearly a no brainer (too bad Cruz was replaced)".

You yourself was pretty spot on with your prediction for Scherners fight with Gonzaga - "gonzaga by lack of cardio enduced ko".

And this is what mpt0069 wrote in the UFN2 thread - "I was pretty unimpressed with Vera. Scherner had some of the slowest hands I've ever seen in MMA competition and he still got a few in there. Great knee by Vera, though. However, he had better lose that 20 pounds and head down to LHW. I shudder to think what an Andrei A or Sylvia would do to him."

just merely stating that grapplers arent gods gift to mma, and talking a lil shit.

[Chewbaca Joe]

BJJ Black Belt World Champion Fabiano Scherner.

Huh? Did he win Copa do Mundo or something? He ain't no IBJJF champ.

[heckyl]

he won Kamatari's backyard grappling championship.

[Grant Ellis]

Wrestling relies a lot on strength and weight advantages too. Hence kids killing themselves to cut.

Just a question, have you ever wrestled?

I don't like a vague term like "A lot" being used when it is going to be mostly technique anyways.

Strength can help, but cardio and technique are for more important, even in wrestling.

In fact most of the kids I've worked with and helped coach don't kill themselves cutting weight.

[Grant Ellis]

Huh? Did he win Copa do Mundo or something? He ain't no IBJJF champ.

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=stats.fighterDetail&pid=E3594F3F43F88B89
It's from his fighter profile:

Fabiano "Pegaleve" Scherner is fighting out of Coconut Creek, Florida, USA. Fabiano started trainings BJJ in 1997 in Brazil. Fabiano Scherner holds Black Belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, World Champ in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, He is also a six time world champion Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, IFC Americas Heavyweight Belt. He has a MMA record (W-L-D) 5-3-0

Also an article on a different site talked about the UFC acquiring Werdum, Cruz, Gonzaga, and Scherner.. the four title holders.

[heckyl]

why doesnt that link mention Kamatari's backyard grappling tournament??

[Grant Ellis]

And comparing Scherner to Werdum is like comparing Franca to Garcia.


You are changing comparisons... we compare Jiu-jitsu to Jiu-jitsu and Muay Thai to Muay Thai.

To say Brandon Vera has not already competed against the world's top grapplers (and Scherner was a title holder, and Vera's efforts in ADCC are well documented, even in losing) would be downright silly.

And I think saying Werdum's standup is bad is also a little silly, if you count punches he landed more than Andrei Arlovski in their fight, he simply got knocked down (the same as he did against Nogueira.)

I see him getting knocked down again.

[heckyl]

Werdum knows the bitch slap of instant death.

[migs]

I'll take Werdum due to his sheer size advantage.

They both have impressive skills in areas but Werdum is big and skilled whereas Vera is very skilled but the much smaller man here.

[Arie-Kanarie]

Very nice odds on unibet.
Werdum, F - Vera, B 2,20 - 1,60

[Chewbaca Joe]

(and Scherner was a title holder,.

What title? Fabiano used to live here and I trained with him here and there. I don't recall a title ever being mentioned.

[( o Y o )]

least this thread has made a relatively uninteresting fight (for me personally) a little more exciting.

[seese]

least this thread has made a relatively uninteresting fight (for me personally) a little more exciting.

That´s why I bet on boring fights.